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GM biting the bullet
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Posted by: Mr. P

From the news today, looks like leadership at GM will be like rats jumping off a sinking ship. Serves em right, for having a product line with so much shit, for buying SAAB in the first place out of greed and nothing more and then running them into the dirt, for outsourcing so much of their work, and for having so many partners outside of the US. Guess what? It ain't workin.

You add all that up, and it's a huge money loser.

Heads, stock, jobs, and models are going to roll. Gimme a knife, I know where I would start chopping. http://www.reuters.com/printerFrien...storyID=8228983

Mr. P

Posted by: skeezix

.....and now it begins.

Posted by: rodslinger

I still haven't decided if GM ran Saab into the ground or they made them better. I always thought Saab was junk before GM took them over.

Posted by: Mr. P

Saab has been totally sucked of all it's substance, totally drained of it's special character, and now you can even get a SAAB that's really a Saturn. Wow, that really gives em a boost, eh?

And what about that FIAT deal??? GM stockholders need to get a piece of that guy's ass, whoever the hell spent their money on that brilliant wet dream. I thought they were supposed to INTERVIEW these assholes before they let em spend that kind of cash. Ohh yeah, and let's not forget the AZTEK, yeah, that's brilliant, ha ha ha ha. A modern-day Edsel. A real big contributor to the bottom line, fugly body, shit for mechanicals, go after the executives who approved it Donald Trump style.

Mr. P

Posted by: BigBluOx

Let's not even talk about the Saab that's really a Subaru...

Posted by: BurnOut

Saab's "special character"?? What character is that?? Being bloated, overpriced, underpowered Swedish pieces of shit with an odd number of cylinders?? THAT "special character"??

As for failure cars, every car company has a few... look at the new Thunderbird, for instance, or the Prowler. Or, and here's a good one... an $80k Porsche that performs like a $45k Corvette.

Posted by: merczephyr

This article probably puts G.M.'s "Current Failure" into perspective as well as anything I've read. really makes you wonder about their decision making the last 3-4 years.

http://www.blueovalnews.com/2005/pr...orm.21mar05.htm

Posted by: No Rice Allowed

You got to understand Mr. P.....The best selling American cars aren't cars, they're Pick-Ups, Vans and SUVs.......I wouldn't be surprised if either of the big three dropped the mid-size boring cars and just focused on, (run to Alaska and back on half a tank gas) Compacts and (I might make it here to the end of the road on half a tank of gas) Luxury Boats while still building trucks... Most Americans like Big Toys....

Posted by: MikeT

hasn't ford's stock dropped alot recently?

And BTW P, saab has always sucked.

Posted by: An11SecRanger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. P


	I thought they were supposed to INTERVIEW these assholes before they let em spend that kind of cash. Mr. P

What were you thinkin' P? As far as I can tell they don't interview anyone who makes decisions. If they did, they might produce cars and trucks that could be repaired without removing something like, say, the tail lights to replace an alternater.
Of course, that's a bit overboard, but I get so pissed sometimes I could just choke the engineers.
I think the engineers should be forced to work in the shops for five years, beginning three years after the vehicles they helped design are introduced! That'd teach 'em!
I might have to start a new post about this.

Posted by: 3SuperSports

Keep in mind while you read this, that my GM loyalties are all but gone. I love my old Camaros, but the pain in the ass S-10 I currently own and the lack of anything new from GM that I would pay real $$ for is non-existant.
I see quality going downhill big time at GM. I've always had really good luck, or experienced good quality from GM. I'm beginning to question which one it really was, but one things for sure. GM is no longer earning my loyalty. I feel like they are out to screw me and sell me overpriced parts to replace the pieces of shit parts that, other than being cheap for GM, never belonged on a new car to begin with. Then if I'm dumb enough to go to a dealership to fix it, get doubly screwed. The dealership I deal with here in town knows how I feel, and won't send the customer satisfaction survey to me after a repair.
Anyway it's my hard earned $$$ and I'll spend it where it'll get me the most, I don't care who or where it's made..........anymore.

Posted by: BurnOut

3SS- if you look at quality reports, GM quality has improved dramatically over the last couple of years.

I don't know what year model your S10 is, but my mom's '97 has been relatively trouble free... the intake manifold leaking coolant was the biggest problem she has had (there have been a couple of others, but mostly minor inconveniences). I'm not saying that you're not having trouble with yours, just that there's a flaky one in every bunch. Hell, my '02 Silverado has been great... the only time it let me down was when the battery went dead.

In any event, there are plenty of good cars at GM:
- the 'Vette (obviously)
- the GTO
- the Cobalt (if you're in the market for that sort of car)
- several cars from Cadillac (even the V6 CTS is a great little car)
- the full size trucks (don't know much about the Colorado/Canyon)
- the Poncho G6 is supposed to be a great car for the category it's in
- the Solstice/Sky show some promise

As for your dealer woes, I can feel your pain... my dad refused to buy a Chevy again after his last experience with the dealer service department (he bought a GMC instead and is much happier with that dealership). However, I have found a great dealership and a service guy who doesn't give me any shit. They're rare, but they're out there.

Posted by: No Rice Allowed

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurnOut


	As for your dealer woes, I can feel your pain... my dad refused to buy a Chevy again after his last experience with the dealer service department (he bought a GMC instead and is much happier with that dealership). However, I have found a great dealership and a service guy who doesn't give me any shit. They're rare, but they're out there.

I think bad dealerships.. can happen to any make of car you buy.....Finding the right one is hard, but they are out there....

Posted by: 3SuperSports

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Rice Allowed


	I think bad dealerships.. can happen to any make of car you buy.....Finding the right one is hard, but they are out there....

I will only go to a dealership now for warranty work. If the warranty has expired, I'll take it elsewhere. There are two really good honest shops that I can go to, not far from home.

Posted by: skeezix

Quote:

Originally Posted by An11SecRanger


	but I get so pissed sometimes I could just choke the engineers. I think the engineers should be forced to work in the shops for five years, beginning three years after the vehicles they helped design are introduced! That'd teach 'em!

Sometimes I think the engineers are probably mutants with 12-inch long fingers and four elbows in each arm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurnOut


	In any event, there are plenty of good cars at GM: - the full size trucks (don't know much about the Colorado/Canyon)

I'll have to disagree with you there. The 99-present full-size trucks haven't been getting a good rep around here. Alot of people have had trouble with them. The engineering design is atrocious. My brother has a 2002, and the rear leafs have less leafs than an old nova. Plus he's had nothing but trouble with it from day one. An over-expensive "glam-truck" if you ask me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurnOut


	However, I have found a great dealership and a service guy who doesn't give me any shit. They're rare, but they're out there.

That's certainly good to find. GM's lack of customer service will probably be their biggest downfall.

Posted by: Mr. P

Quote:

Originally Posted by An11SecRanger


	What were you thinkin' P? As far as I can tell they don't interview anyone who makes decisions. If they did, they might produce cars and trucks that could be repaired without removing something like, say, the tail lights to replace an alternater. Of course, that's a bit overboard, but I get so pissed sometimes I could just choke the engineers. I think the engineers should be forced to work in the shops for five years, beginning three years after the vehicles they helped design are introduced! That'd teach 'em! I might have to start a new post about this.

Ranger, is it just me, not paying attention, or have you been on an extended vacation? In any case welcome back!

Mr. P

Posted by: BurnOut

Quote:


	I'll have to disagree with you there. The 99-present full-size trucks haven't been getting a good rep around here. Alot of people have had trouble with them. The engineering design is atrocious. My brother has a 2002, and the rear leafs have less leafs than an old nova. Plus he's had nothing but trouble with it from day one. An over-expensive "glam-truck" if you ask me.

Wow... what the hell are ya'll doing to those trucks?? Everyone I know with one loves it. Mine's 4WD w/ an automatic (about as troublesome of a driveline as you can find), and I haven't had a single problem with it (~46k miles). I've only towed with it once, but it was a 1500 pound flatbed with a 3000 pound car on it... the truck drove, rode, and stopped great. Of course it was noticeable that I had a trailer behind it, but let's face it... 4500 pounds isn't exactly a garden trailer with a lawnmower and 3 bags of mulch. I'm not sure I understand the "atrocious" engineering you're talking about... they make more power and get better mileage than similar Ford/Dodge trucks and the interiors hold out just fine.

Posted by: LS1 Mopar Turbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurnOut


	Wow... what the hell are ya'll doing to those trucks?? Everyone I know with one loves it. Mine's 4WD w/ an automatic (about as troublesome of a driveline as you can find), and I haven't had a single problem with it (~46k miles). I've only towed with it once, but it was a 1500 pound flatbed with a 3000 pound car on it... the truck drove, rode, and stopped great. Of course it was noticeable that I had a trailer behind it, but let's face it... 4500 pounds isn't exactly a garden trailer with a lawnmower and 3 bags of mulch. I'm not sure I understand the "atrocious" engineering you're talking about... they make more power and get better mileage than similar Ford/Dodge trucks and the interiors hold out just fine.

I love my 04 24,000 miles and not one problem, I would get another in heart beat.

Posted by: 65fairlane

I can't honestly say that I like the anti-engineer sentiment around here.

Posted by: merczephyr

An old saying I've heard through the years of working on aircraft..."Before you design a wrench, you should be required to know how to use a wrench."

Posted by: 3SuperSports

Quote from Bob Lutz:

Poor training and ponderous organizational structures are placing North American engineers at a disadvantage compared to their global counterparts, General Motors Vice Chairman Robert Lutz said here last week in his keynote speech to the SAE Automotive Engineers World Congress.

Lutz said North America is poorly prepared to handle the global engineering challenges of the future unless the system changes.

"We are training our engineers to be managers - managers of a group of designers who actually find the solutions, while the rest of the world really trains them to be doers," he said. "We are deliberately avoiding the hands-on engineer, and I believe we need to change that."

No substitute for reality

While Lutz supports GM's move to virtual-reality engineering, which uses computer simulations and math-based prototypes, he said the U.S. system encourages a reliance on virtual engineering instead of individuals who are willing "to get their hands dirty."

"American automotive engineers are at a distinct disadvantage in the way they are trained vs. their Asian and German counterparts, and I've seen it time and time again," Lutz said. "In many cases (U.S. engineers) don't have the bone-deep understanding … and the ability to draw and model without calling in a bunch of specialists."

Math and modeling and the depictions on computer screens are only simulations of the real thing, he said.

"You have to have an intimate relationship with the three-dimensional object. You've got to see it and touch it and be able to pick it up," Lutz said.

Too many meetings

Another problem, he said, is the "slow and bureaucratic process" found at many U.S. companies.

Lutz praised Mazda, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, GM Daewoo and Fuji Heavy Industries for having well-trained engineering teams that aren't burdened by a ponderous committee system.

If a design change is suggested early in an Asian or European product program, Lutz said, "Very frequently they'll come up with a conceptual solution right there on the spot."

In the United States, he said, engineers who are asked to make alterations will "go away and meet in groups, and three weeks later you do get an answer - but it may not be the solution to the problem."

A return to drafting is the key, Lutz said. In the last three years, GM has retrained its engineers in basic drafting as part of a program called Designing Engineers. In some cases, those engineers are well into their GM careers.

"It's going to take a while to get them all through the program," Lutz said. "But, believe me, it's worth it."

Posted by: IROC_ZO6

Quote:

Originally Posted by LS1 Mopar Turbo


	I love my 04 24,000 miles and not one problem, I would get another in heart beat.

same deal here dude... 36K miles on the old mans 2000 MY lease with the 4.8, not 1 problem. 34k hard miles on my 2000 TA, not 1 prob... his 2004 1500 with the 4.3v6 has 20k and is working like brand new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65fairlane


	I can't honestly say that I like the anti-engineer sentiment around here.

yeah no shit.

one thing i dont like is the colorado with that POS Inline 5. worthless damn engine layout anyhow...

Posted by: skeezix

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurnOut


	Wow... what the hell are ya'll doing to those trucks??

I really don't know man. We must be getting the lemons of the bunch.

Either that or the climate is just brutal on them.

I've heard of t-cases, crapping out, countless electrical problems, ABS problems, poor gas mileage with the 5.3, tires, brakes. It hasn't left me with a warm fuzzy feeling about em'. Especially when they want $30 grand (cdn) for a plain jane 2wd 1500 with basic options.

Glad to hear you guys are doing great with em' tho', but I'll never get one.

Posted by: Mr. P

THe US industry has been plagued by the politics of design and the UAW. The politics of design is what built the Edsel in the first place, a political decision and certainly not the "best" idea they had at the time. How did the Edsel get by so many internal checkpoints, unless they were all kissing each others ass?

There is no reason why Saturn should not be the envy of the world. Bran new plant, new concept, fresh sheet of paper, they started off in the right directiion and GM management just missed the boat, just like they did on a whole lot of other cars, sheesh, don't make me start recanting the Vega, Cossworth Vega, Fiero, Allante, Chevette, Citation, Cimmaron, Reatta, oh and let's not forget all those JV projects with Toyota, Isuzu, Disney, the purchase of SAAB, the purchase and sale of Lotus, the default at FIAT, and the venture into Hughs aircraft and electronics.............just to name a few that come to mind. Yeah I know I forgot the Corvair and the entire lineup at Oldsmobile.

Mr> P

Posted by: No Rice Allowed

Today, it seems Everyone wants that Edsel....How beauty is in the eye of the beholder...Just a vision before it's time.....

Posted by: Mr. P

Not everyone wants an ugly rustbucket that is collected for it's oddity.

Around 100,000 were made in three years, and they had projected from 300,000 to 600,000. Wow, now that's a business plan (that sucks). What GM is doing now is like taking a fist full of marbles and thorowing them on the floor, impossible to manage, too many little dictators, no direction, on a collision course with bankruptcy. Guess what they're saying......Buick is next to go on the chopping block. Wonder who will be next. If you don't have leadership, just let the accountants run wild, they'll make things look "good" for a few years and then they'll jump ship to another job right before the big ship sinks.

Mr. P

Posted by: No Rice Allowed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. P


	Not everyone wants an ugly rustbucket that is collected for it's oddity. Mr. P

What is so ugly about it?

The Pontiac Asstek is way uglier.....I can name many popular cars that are far uglier....

You think this is prettier?

http://www.weblogsinc.com/common/im...554007938002322

Posted by: Mr. P

what do you mean, not ugly? That thing is hideous, and it's actually nothing more than a boogered up 1960 Ford Starliner. Look at the Ford styling below, and then look at the Edsel, even in 1960 when Edsel was already reeling from the hideous styling of the two previous years, they STILL couldn't get away from meaningless adornment.

You take "meaningless adornment" and put it up against the "beautiful proportions, and masterful execution" coming out of Europe at the time, and buddy, you can see one fugly duckling that didn't have a chance in a market driven economy.

Mr. P

Even though that '60 Edsel is nothing more than a scabbed up Ford, it's one of the better looking Edsels out there, but I sure like the Ford a hell of a lot better.

Posted by: IROC_ZO6

they are both ugly. [blasphmey] fins and chrome blow. [/blasphmey]

Posted by: No Rice Allowed

I don't know P....I don't see that much of a difference than many coming out of that era.....It just looks more luxury than the others...It's not like they chopped the back off or sloped the hood so much it looks like an evil door wedge.....or bubbled it to look like a pregnant roller skate on wheels....So they added a different grill and changed the taillights, it still holds the same body contour as many did from that time...I just can't see how the car is that ugly compared to alot more before it and after it....

coming out of europe?? Boy they showed us...

Posted by: Geargrabber

Chevy trucks SUCK. I'll say it again. I'm stuck driving one every day and I am actually concerned for my safety. My boss has started buying elsewhere, you guys know why? Because he can't afford the maintenance on our fleet of 3500's! This takes into account the 10,000 in additional cost and the three month waiting list for Ford and Dodge trucks (utilty types...I know all you GM lovers can get a chevy 3500 tomorrow). I don't give a flying fuck what kind of performance all you chevy owners get out of your trucks. I know mine stalls when I turn sharply, has eaten three fuel pumps, thrown the rear axle out of the housing, body rolls like shamu, warps rotors during easy stops (if it stops), occasionally won't have a brake pedal (again, yeah hydraboost), the interior falls off constantly..... It never ends. Do any of you think the quality reports are not influenced (or possibly outright lies?). Anyways, go ahead and like 'em if you want. I have owned two GM products and will never ever buy one again. All the GM fans will keep denying their shit breaks and boasting about how great it is, how it has "MORE POWER" and the best towing capacity. To each his own I guess. Fucking torsion bars front suspension on a one ton+ (so they say...) truck that changes weight a few thousand pounds every day. Theres a stroke of engineering brilliance!

And as for the Edsel I don't see why it caused such a stir. Looks like all of the other cars of the era. Those old Caddy's fit right in with it. Fins and chrome....57 Chevy anyone?

Posted by: LS1JAY

Strange... I've already put 30,000+ miles on my TB with zero problems! I know people who hate their Fords just as much as you hate your Chevy! Let's not even get into all of the problems with Dodge trucks!

Posted by: LS1 Mopar Turbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geargrabber


	Chevy trucks SUCK. I'll say it again. I'm stuck driving one every day and I am actually concerned for my safety. My boss has started buying elsewhere, you guys know why? Because he can't afford the maintenance on our fleet of 3500's! This takes into account the 10,000 in additional cost and the three month waiting list for Ford and Dodge trucks (utilty types...I know all you GM lovers can get a chevy 3500 tomorrow). I don't give a flying fuck what kind of performance all you chevy owners get out of your trucks. I know mine stalls when I turn sharply, has eaten three fuel pumps, thrown the rear axle out of the housing, body rolls like shamu, warps rotors during easy stops (if it stops), occasionally won't have a brake pedal (again, yeah hydraboost), the interior falls off constantly..... It never ends. Do any of you think the quality reports are not influenced (or possibly outright lies?). Anyways, go ahead and like 'em if you want. I have owned two GM products and will never ever buy one again. All the GM fans will keep denying their shit breaks and boasting about how great it is, how it has "MORE POWER" and the best towing capacity. To each his own I guess. Fucking torsion bars front suspension on a one ton+ (so they say...) truck that changes weight a few thousand pounds every day. Theres a stroke of engineering brilliance! And as for the Edsel I don't see why it caused such a stir. Looks like all of the other cars of the era. Those old Caddy's fit right in with it. Fins and chrome....57 Chevy anyone?

Whatever dude. I work for a company called Air Products. 20,000 employees world wide. Chevy is all they buy. We have a 2000 HD at work with 180,000 miles on it and a 2000 1/2 ton with 130,000 miles on it, both work hard and are still going strong, the place my wife works at uses all Ford truck, they spend a lot of time in the shop for stupid shit and trannies. Everyone has a bad day and builds a shitty car/truck once in a while. I have owned a couple of Fords and learned my lesson the hard way, they break, cost more to fix and just plain suck.

Any time you wanna hook up the Jeep (hahahahaha) with a chain to the Chevy bring it...

Posted by: IROC_ZO6

with this guys post history, the term "delusional" comes to mind

Posted by: MikeT

Nissan has them all beat!

Posted by: merczephyr

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeT


	Nissan has them all beat!

Nissan beat the big 3 to building a truck that looks like a 80's Transformer toy with downs syndrom.

Posted by: MikeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by merczephyr


	Nissan beat the big 3 to building a truck that looks like a 80's Transformer toy with downs syndrom.

Ya but transformers kick ass!

Posted by: 1LowCav

Quote:

Originally Posted by merczephyr


	Nissan beat the big 3 to building a truck that looks like a 80's Transformer toy with downs syndrom.

Do you mean the Titan?? UGLIEST fuckin' truck I've ever seen!

Posted by: LS1JAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1LowCav


	Do you mean the Titan?? UGLIEST fuckin' truck I've ever seen!

Yeah, but it has to be great... it's an "import"!

Posted by: No Rice Allowed

Quote:

Originally Posted by LS1JAY


	Yeah, but it has to be great... it's an "import"!

Like Honda's new truck?

Posted by: GMR

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Rice Allowed


	Like Honda's new truck?

That Honda truck looks kinda like a smaller version of an Escalade EXT.

LS

Posted by: IROC_ZO6

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Rice Allowed


	Like Honda's new truck?

typical jap copy cat shit, but uglier, just like the scion XB and the early 90s s-10 blazers... boy I hope the ugly big jap truck trend dies fast.

Posted by: BurnOut

Regarding the Nissan Titan, say what you will about the styling (it's subjective), but based on my limited experience, it's a pretty decent truck. I drove one at the GM Auto Show In Motion, back-to-back with a Silverado, a new Ford, a Dodge, and an Avalanche.

Really, the Titan has decent power (unloaded... dunno how it would do with a load or trailer) and good brakes, but the factory tires kind of suck and it body rolls moderately. If they were comparably priced with the domestics (I don't know what their pricing looks like), I would likely consider one (assuming that I was in the market for a new truck).

Posted by: Greyone

As noted before.. All Car Companies make cars/trucks that don't cut it. I say SO what. GM is in no way going down at all. You name a company that produces mass amounts of production cars/trucks and I name ya at least 2-3 lemons. The Key is being smart enough to not spend 30k on a POS. It's the comsumers job to pick a vehicle they like, lots out there and some are better then others. If ya need help.. I suggest a Vette... /P

Posted by: 65fairlane

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeT


	Ya but transformers kick ass!

I actually have about 75 of them at the moment. I have the first season and the first part of the third season on dvd.

Posted by: Geargrabber

I'll hook a chain up to your Silverado any time. I get to pick where (if you are wondering, NO- you won't make it there)

I'm kind of curious what my gearing would do for me in a pull, but it's almost impossible to overcome a short wheelbase while pulling.

And Zo6....delusional? My post history?

Posted by: HAMMER

I'm a fan of all American cars, esp. GM and Chevrolet, but I haven't purchased a new Chevy in many, many years. Reasons being... 1. Not interested in a FWD V6 car. 2. Not interested in an overpriced SUV that gets bad gas mileage. 3. Even w/ rebates, the cars are still overpriced. Therefore, I continue drive my mid-80s Chevy Monte SS every day. That being said, I hope GM can turn around and survive this current financial crisis. I look forward to the day when I can choose between a new Camaro or Monte SS/Chevelle w/ a LS7 in it!

I also agree on the dealership repair shop complaints. I now do my best to avoid them completely and use local repair shops that I trust.

A few years back I had an experience w/ a dealer that will keep me away from Mr. Goodwrench for quite sometime. My car would not idle properly after a stop. They were unable to diagnose the problem correctly, charged me over $1000 for a carb rebuild and tune up that did NOT fix the problem and then refused to acknowledge that the same problem persisted. Trying to explain this to the dealer's customer service rep was futile. Quote "Oh, this must be a new problem." I eventually took the car to a tranny shop that correctly diagnosed and fixed the issue. I also later found that my problem was a common issue w/ similar GM cars that had a lock-up torque converter. You would think that Mr. Goodwrench would have known about this.

Soon after the carb rebuild, I had carb issues again, this time I had my local mechanic do the 2nd rebuild. His comments... whoever did the previous rebuild ripped you off! The carb is filled w/ sludge and the the mounting screws are stipped!

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