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Thinking of building a muscle car
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Posted by: Po Po

I have a brother in law who races and finally went to see him drag race !! It was awesome!! considering finding an old car and rebuilding and getting it ready to race ! Any suggestions on make or model or am I just plain crazy and should just stick to my Ford crown victoria at work and watch from the side lines ?

Posted by: John

It's difficult to offer a suggestion on vehicle type out of the blue. Also, it's not something one should just jump in to whole hog because you can get serious hurt. This is also an expensive proposition. Sure, you can go fast for cheap but it's a second vehicle that requires parts that are 2-3 times as expensive as an OEM counterpart.

If you are planning to drive this on the road then as a cop you should be well aware of the road safety laws and bother federal and state emissions and safety laws. So these kinds of things factor in to the whole "race car" thing.

Can you offer any more insight in to what you are looking to do? Keep in mind that this will be a mutating thing so starting out small and reaching for maybe mid-13 second runs is very attainable goal and a good place to shoot for for a novice.

Posted by: Po Po

As I don't need to write myself any well deserved tickets !!! Ha Ha I was thinking about starting with a car that I can work on slowly and not use it as a second car. Really enjoyed being at the track and have factored in the safety issue as I do run high speeds but not on straight aways..... not as fast as those. If I start to invest is it wise to start with the big block or the smaller blocks. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Posted by: MadScientistMatt

It depends on your tastes and budget. As a general rule, the most potent package is to stick the largest motor from your brand of choice into the smallest car it will easily fit in - with Mopars, that would be a 440 in an A-body. The downside to these is that this often takes a lot of room out of the engine compartment.

Posted by: John

Big blocks are expensive and heavy. I would start out with a naturally aspirated small block and once I sucked everything out of it, I'd go with a super charger or other power adder and the wring that dry. Then you can move up to a big block. Unless of course the car came with a big block then by all means, go for it.

However, if you are looking for Mopar muscle, your pickings are slim. classic muscle cars garner a small fortune in the Mopar realm anymore and Chrysler had nothing worth while from about 76 all the way up until 2004 unless you look at the trucks.

What you should look for is a base model of your favorite body style, snag one in good condition and get yourself a crate motor from Mopar. Drop it in and start there. If you can't do it yourself, there are many shops that can help out. Get a decent transmission behind it too. that would be a good base to start with. I know teh cruisers are fairly ballsy but cop cars are weaknuts compared to what runs at the track. It's a whole 'nother game there and these cars will behave much differently than a CV or Impala.

Posted by: The OLE MAN

Hey PO PO,

I hate to say it, butt, I agree with what the two BOZO's said above. Alot depends on YOU and what you want to do.

John is right about the cost of a MOPAR muscle car. Your best bet would be a 2-door version of the cheap model ( 65's and 66's ) don't seem to bring as much money and you can still find a satellite or Belvedere in that year model. Also, you might consider an A BODY like Matt talked about, Duster $$$$, Dart cheaper, Valiant real cheap or even an early Barracuda. Stuffing a BIG block in an A BODY is not easy. I would stay with the small block at first. You can make BIG inches out of a small block nowadays, butt, it still cost $$$$$$$$. Don't cheap out on the bottom end, espically on a MOPAR. Cranks like to WALK on you with BIG inches. I would start out with a crate 360 and go from there. You can always add the JUICE, like John said later if you aren't going fast enough and you won't be

.

Let me know if you need any help. I've built a few MOPARS over the years. maybe I can save you some mistakes, like I made in the past.

An 8 3/4 rear end will serve you well at first, butt, keep your eye out for a Dana. Sooner or later you will need it.

Take your time and have fun doing it or you will quit.

Also, and here is a word of advise from me.

IMAGE IS EVERYTHING, so keep that engine compartment CLEAN....

It doesn't take long to fill in all the extra holes you won't need, move shit to the trunk or under the dash, paint and color sand.

And here is the BEST advice I can give to you,

NEVER TAKE ONE PERSONS ADVICE

Go to the track and talk to the guys running the cars. MOST, of them will talk to you and tell you MOST of the truth.

AND, this kills me to say it, butt, BOWTIES and BLU OVALS are probably your best bet to start with. Cars and parts are everywhere.

The OLE MAN

Posted by: John

Well, it's not necessarily a "better" option to go with Fords or GMs. They are all competative so none of them are really better than the others. The biggest difference between them and Mopar is that Chrysler forgot about the muscle car and pony car during the late 70's all the way into the next century. Ford and GM were duking it out the whole time with Camaros and Mustangs with the occasional smattering of Pontiacs thrown in for good measure. They got real serious in the 90's when they started releasing hot rod trucks too.

The one thing Mopar does have going for them though is an extensive parts and racing program in the Mopar Performance Parts domain. It can be easy to make anything from Ma Mopar fast but the problem is finding something suitable.

You can still get an 80's and 90's Mustang in to the 11's real quick and easy and fairly cheaply. There are plenty of donors and possible racers in the line ups too. Everything from Mavericks and Pintos to the 80's CV's and LTD's which are still fairly light. None weighed in over 4600 pounds and the mid-sized LTD was a hefty but managable 3600 pounds. There is also the loooooooong line of Fox chassied cars of which the Mustang and LTD are members but it also includes the Thunderbird, Cougar, Capri, Fairmont, Zephyr, Mark series, and a few others. Many parts are interchangable and some aftermarket parts will work too. Almost all of them came with 4, 6 or 8 cylinder options so swaps are a cinch. There are also the small pickups in the Ranger and Courier (also Mazda B-series) which are very light and the Ranger can accept a 302 without having to beef up the suspension. Get the weight balanced better and they make great little drag trucks.

The same goes for GM. With Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, Buick and even cadillac, there are performance variants throughout the entire line from the mid-70's on where Mopar dropped the ball. You can get donor cars and racers also from Vegas and Chevettes to Camaros, Corvettes and Firebirds and everything in between. The Chevy 350 is ubiqoutous and is literally every with parts galore to shove it between the frame rails of everything from Chevettes to Jaguars. The only engine with a bigger after market is the roller cam 302 and that's because of the Mustangs. GM also has thier small trucks and the S-10 can take a 350 without a problem. You just need heavier springs up front. Same goes for the S-10 Blazer and GMC Jimmy.

Now both have performance variants of trucks. There is the king of the heap the Lightning which eventhough it isn't in production anymore, it has a rabid following. It also has a 4 door variant in the Harley Davidson F-150. Both trucks have an expensive initial outlay but they will make power easily and fairly cheaply. Even the older 93-95 Lightnings with the 351W engine are faily easy to get going fast.

GM has the C/K SS454 pickup, the new Silverado SS and the older Syclone/Typhoon trucks. Any one of them can go fast easily too. They can be difficult to find though. The new Silverado SS is a 40K truck too so it's not such a good deal for going fast on the cheap.

One thing to look for is turbo cars. If you can find the SVO Mustang, it had a turbocharged 2.3L 4 cylinder. It could make power easy with very simple and cheap mods. The same goes for the Buick Grand National and T-Type cars. Turbocharged 3.8L V6's, they are the power kings from the mid 80's. They could make disgiusting amounts of power and it's not uncommon to see them in the low 11's to high 9's.

Dodge had some turbo cars and if you can find an Omni with a 2.2L turbo, that is a stout performer with oodles of potential.

So basically, you have two choices. Fast and ugly or not as fast and pretty. For teh Ole Man in sunny SoCal where there is no such thing as rust, he sees no options. If he ever visited my local tracks, he'd see that just because it looks like shit don't mean it's not faster than stink!

Best advice I can give is use your head. Think about a move before you make it and if you are unsure, ask. I learned a TON of shit just watching the old guys at the track. Don't ask stupid questions like "What do ya got?" Look at what they have, they don't have time to jaw on about bench racing. If you see something, ask an intelligent and thought out question. Like the Ole Man said, many guys will be willing to help you out. Sometimes you'll meet a dick but those guys are everywhere and you'll be able to pick them out. The BEST time to talk to people is waiting in line at the staging lanes. There is usually fuck-all to do so people are more willing to talk to kill time. The pits are the worst place to talk because most guys are busier than a one armed paper hanger trying to get ready for the next round. So pick your times well and it would do you well not to mention that you are a cop. It's unfortunate that the good cops have to ride along with the stigma given them by the bad cops but it happens. Alot of those people at the track have been needlessly hassled many times by cops just looking for something to snag them on or on a weenie power trip and it leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. They are less likely to be open with a guy they never met telling them he's a cop. It's paranoia but it's justified.

Get to know people better, show up often enough and they'll remember you. Once they see you racing, the fact that you're a cop won't matter a hill of beans. Afterall, if you're racing too, it's less likely you will have a hidden agenda.

Posted by: Po Po

I just want to thank all of you for your time for answering my question and look foward to asking a million more questions. I think I;m gonna try and go with the early mustang or maybe the camaro for starters.It;s something new and I;m looking foward to the challeng......and as for my Crown Vic they're good for beating the hell out of them and still running especially in pursuits ! Ha ! Ha ! You guys be safe driving !

Posted by: John

The 4.6L may not be as ballsy as the LT1 350 in the old Chebby cop cars but they are damn near indestructible...provided they are maintained properly of course. When I worked at Pep Boys as a parts counter monkey, I had guys coming in with vans, taxi cabs and trucks with the 4.6L, 5.4L and 6.8L mod motors and frequently having well over 100K, some into 200K mile range and not having a single problem aside from the coolant crossover tube which was an easy fix.

But, by far, the easiest way to make power is with a Ford 302 or a Chevy 350 or any one of thier variants. Well, except the Ford 255 and 260 and the small Chevy V8's like the 305 and smaller. Also, while a Camaro or Mustang is a good idea, you'd probably be better off looking for something like a late 70's to early 80's Malibu or one of the other GM variants. Also, easier pickings would be a Monte Carlo or Grand Prix from the mid 80's. You can pick them up cheap and they all had at least a 305 which has similar mounts as a 350 and was slightly heavier so they all will take a V8. They were also carb'ed stock so you don't have to worry about screwing around with EFI junk. Carbs are the cheapest way to go anyhow.

If you want to go with a Ford, a 4-eyed Mustang from 83-86 can be had cheap and pretty much any part from 1982-1993 will work. Only the earliest 82-85 models are carb'ed in any form and EFI, up until 1988 was speed-density. In '89, they came with mass-air which was a better setup for tuning and performance. One of the first things most people do with speed density cars is to ditch the speed-density system in favor of the mass-air.

Just to give you an idea of the potential in the Fox chassied Mustang, in 1986, with only 200 ponies under the hood was capable of hitting high 13's in the 1/4 mile. It is not unreasonable, difficult or expensive to pull 300-350 horses out of a 302 without having to do any internal engine work. That alone will get you deep into the 12's on a set of slicks. Drop some interior bits, get your torque boxes welded up right, new controls arms top and bottom in the rear, decent shocks and springs, a good clutch and better gears and you'll have a car capable of breaking into the 11's fairly easily. The only issue is the T-5 tends to like to eat synchronizers when it's romped on. Overall though, it won't be that expensive. You can still do it for aroung 5 grand, maybe a bit more, but that includes the price of the car. If you get yourself a convertible, it'd make a nice weekend car for the street or the strip.

Posted by: Po Po

Looking at the older model Mustangs and need help on which years I should look for. Dual purose for road and drag strip. Would like to put a big block in the mustang and if so what type should I be looking for? any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Po Po

Posted by: Horselips

Fox body Mustangs are in my opinion the best bang for the buck performance cars out there. They are easy to work on , relatively light and parts interchangeability is good .
The Ford 302 / 5.0 is cheap to build and if assembled correctly, maintained half way decently and driven with just a little common sense are darn near indestructible.

Posted by: formerice

I would suggest finding a nice Dodge Dart 340. Unlike the other classic Mopars, they can be had fairly reasonable. Light and fast. Bet they will go up in value a lot in the next few years. Plus they are MOPARS!

Posted by: Spenser01

I think that if i was in you postion, i would try to find a foxy body mustang, early 80's, and not look so much at a big block, but a small block motor that you can crank alot of horse out, and that should give you a good start, it also depends what kind of raceing your planning on doing, classes, and the once u have figured all that out, you should be able to get going.

Posted by: mrbillcollecta

I would say u are crazy...im pondering the same thing. Learn as I go.

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