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New Car...?

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Posted by: bl3wbyu

Ok, I'm now being faced with a dilemma. And I'm not quite sure what to think. I know this is a 'muscle car' forum, and so y'all don't specialize with cars like I'm debating about, but I thought I'd get your opinions anyways.

Alright, my car is a '95 Cherokee. I love it. I've said multiple times I don't ever want to get rid of it. Besides a dirty driver side floor mat, a small gash in the roof-liner, and a new found dampness under the driver's side carpet (haven't narrowed that one down yet), she's perfect. Sure, sure...scracthes here and there, thin paint here, and dent there...but really, she's in great shape. 129,86x miles...hoping she'll go for 300,000+ (I've read that's typical). She has the bullet-proof AW4 transmission. Everything's stock except for the audio system.

I've always wanted to put a lift, tires, bumpers, rock rails on it, and have been looking into that a lot more here recently. I've held the position that whenever I thought about selling, I probably wouldn't be able to get squat out of it, so why not just keep it forever? I mean, seriously? Whenever the engine needs work, stroke it to a 4.2 - 4.6L, rebuild, good for another 200,000 at least, I'd hope. It would make for an awesome continued DD, a trail rig, etc. Yeah, it's soak up a lot of money (lift, shocks, tires and wheels: ~$1800 - $3000), but I'm talking about having it around for a long time. Doesn't seem like too much of a financial waste to me.

Well, Dad bought a 2004 Jetta TDI 5speed sometime last year that he's started using as DD instead of having to fill up our Suburban's gas tank. Fun car, good shape, really, though it does have about 70,000 miles on it already.

To cut to the chase, Dad *somehow* remembers me saying sometime before that I wanted to sell the Jeep; I certainly have NO recollection of saying that...but ok. He says he has a customer who would be interested in it for $4,000; and we only gave about $4,200 for it two years ago. All we've done to it is get the transmission seal replaced, new radiator and thermostat, and then gas and tires. Not too much money lost on it if we do decide to sell it. Dad's advocating I'd then drive the Jetta. Hey, that's pretty cool, right? Great gas mileage (46 - 52mpg....opposed to my 15mpg). Nicer interior. A lot nicer handling. The fun of a stick (though I'd have to learn how to drive it...that's right...be quiet...I don't know how yet...I said stop laughing!). Yada yada yada yada.

But I'd lose my Jeep! My dream is to have, say, the Jetta, with aftermarket wheels and suspension, intake, exhaust, engine management (one of my dad's customers said he could do something to the computer to get about 200 more horsepower out of it...woohoo!). Would make a nice, practical, economical daily driver. Then I could have my (hopefully) lifted Jeep as a trail rig and daily driver in the winter. That'd be a perfect scenario. But apparantly that's not really possible.

So, I guess I've rambled on and on and on enough here. What are y'all's thoughts? What would you do? I suppose I could take the Jetta and buy a clunker of a Jeep for cheap whenever. But then it'd be a clunker. I have an 11 year old Jeep now...that's in perfect condition. I just hate to see it go. I love driving it!

Argh. I hate choices, haha. Gimme some input!


Posted by: The OLE MAN

First off, being a DAD, I say listen to him . Besides, if all goes wrong you can say, YOU said do it .

Save alittle money and get what you want later.


The OLE MAN


Posted by: bl3wbyu

Oh, and one thing that may be worth noting. I didn't pay a penny for the Jeep (and so won't see any of the $4,000 if we sell), and I've only bought maybe 3 tanks of gas for it myself. Whenever it's low on gas I say, "Dad, have any gas money?" and he hands me two 20's or a 50.


Posted by: The OLE MAN

Quote:
Originally Posted by bl3wbyu
Oh, and one thing that may be worth noting. I didn't pay a penny for the Jeep (and so won't see any of the $4,000 if we sell), and I've only bought maybe 3 tanks of gas for it myself. Whenever it's low on gas I say, "Dad, have any gas money?" and he hands me two 20's or a 50.




My point EXACTLY..................



The OLE MAN


Posted by: No Rice Allowed

Well, how special is the Jeep to you..Is it your first car? Are there any attachments to it and your dad?? Sentimental values way heavy as well.....I wish I never gave up my first car, if I could go back, I would keep it just for the reasons listed above....


Posted by: LS1JAY

Quote:
Originally Posted by bl3wbyu
one of my dad's customers said he could do something to the computer to get about 200 more horsepower out of it...woohoo!

Don't believe everything you here. It'll take a LOT more than "something to the computer" to get another 200 hp out of a Jetta!


Posted by: 65fairlane

Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1JAY
Don't believe everything you here. It'll take a LOT more than "something to the computer" to get another 200 hp out of a Jetta!



I would have to agree with Jay here. My Bullshit detector just maxed out and the needle snapped off.


Posted by: bl3wbyu

Aye, I've concluded the 200hp increase probably is not accurate. So, disregard that. I've also learned that the TDi doesn't really have much to work with performance wise...and I've also learned even the VR6 ain't that hot...so now I'm down on VW in general...

I have no attachments to the car except for the fact that it's my first car...and that I love it! I was talking to somebody at school yesterday before this came up, and they said they couldn't picture me in a Jetta. I just wasn't the Jetta type.

After thinking about it all day...not having any luck researching the TDI...and then driving the XJ to class...I really don't wanna get rid of it.

But I haven't made up my mind 100% yet.


Posted by: LS1 Mopar Turbo

Hey skip the VW believe. My wife and I had a 2002 Jetta TDI, how much time do you have to hear about the issues?


Posted by: John

If teh Jetta is turbocharged, it is possible to pick up a bunch of power. The computer mods are necessary but you aren't getting 200 horses more out of it without a boost controller. IIRC, the wastegate is eletronically controlled and the computer mods involve changing the max/min values of the wastegate programming. The problem is that you also have to asjust fuel maps and such. That leans to seariously rich conditions down low in the RPM or under low boost and that leads to reliability issues on an already decidedly unreliable car.

The Jeep on the other hand. If it has that 4.0L I6, it's indestruictible. The 2.8L I6 was equally robust but totally weaknuts in the power department.

The Jetta would be a nice ride for sure but what's the point of a nice car if the only one who gets to see it is the mechanic?


Posted by: No Rice Allowed

Quote:
Originally Posted by bl3wbyu

I have no attachments to the car except for the fact that it's my first car...and that I love it!





There's your answer.....


Posted by: MadScientistMatt

They had a VW Beetle TDI in a recent issue of Grassroots Motorsports where the owner had turned up the boost. Somehow they managed to dyno it at a hair over 400 lb-ft of torque... and around 125 hp. Really weird beasty; must have been out of breath by 2,500 RPM to get such a screwball torque curve. But with that little breathing, it seems like it would be hard to make real power from that Jetta.

I suspect the Jeep will hold up a bit better than the Jetta in the long run - the Cherokees are built like tanks. My father has one that's old enough to vote and has somewhere around 200,000 miles on the clock.


Posted by: bl3wbyu

LS1 Mopar Turbo - If you wouldn't mind, what kind of problems did you have with your TDI? What seems to be common issues with the TDI's?

With 70,000 miles on Dad's 2004 TDI, I would imagine it's seen a lot of problems and will being seeing a lot shortly, assuming the TDI's really are trouble-infested. We started with a 2001 (I believe) auto TDI. We heard from several sources the auto was junk, so we traded it in on the 5speed. This one was a bit hesitant sometimes; VW had a recall on some sensor (forgot what it was), had it replaced, it's fine. Now we have some rattling in the dash at around 3k rpm, and we've had it in the shop probably about 4 times with them trying to figure out what the problem is...and we *think* they figured it out this last time. Besides that, we've had no problems or indications of problems with it.

So I'd just be interested in hearing what kind of problems they commonly have, as I've heard a BUNCH of people online say they're nothing but trouble, whereas all the people I've talked to in person have nothing but praise for it. Dad has one customer who owns an import mechanic shop, and he drives a TDI, too. He loves it.

John, what all would be necessary to get some substantial power gains? How fast do you think one could make it? Without putting too much money into it and sacrificing too much reliability? One guy said that you couldn't get 0 -60 times below 10 seconds. Well, I'm sorry... but I'm just not interested in a car that takes 10+ second to reach 60! If it's going to be that slow, I'm not even interested in suspension mods to make it handle better...it'd all be wasted money, in my opinion.

MadScientestMatt - Wow, 400lb-ft? That's pretty impressive. Wonder what kind of torque steer it exhibited! Good to hear your dad's Cherokee is still running strong.



After showing so much interest in this post about the Jetta, I'm 98% sure I've decided to keep the Jeep. But, Dad will still have the Jetta, and hopefully he'll let me learn how to drive it and then let me drive it some. Especially if I do start working on my Jeep some myself and it ends up being in pieces when I need to get somewhere.

I'm still hoping that one day I may end up with them both. Though I'm beginning to wonder if ending up with the Jetta is even worth hoping for.


Posted by: John

The Jetta TDI is a diesel. It won't make real horsepower but can make gobs of torque. It'll do great on gas but, because of the narrow power band and low RPM performance of the diesel engine, it'll never be an acceleration king like say a Golf GTi or Jetta 2.0T. Don't get me wrong, the diesels are stout but if you want hot rod performance, that diesel is just not the way to go.

You can make a good deal of power by tuning up the boost but that just increases compression. The more you increase compression, the harder it is for that engine to compress the air/fuel charge. Diesels already run high compression. That's how they run. That's also the reason they don't make horsepower as easily as gas engines. It takes more power to compress a diesel engine than a gasoline engine. Because of that, a mod on a gas engine that might net you 50 horses and 25 pound feet of torque will only get you maybe 35 horses but 60 pound feet of torque in a diesel.

Also, diesel internals are heavier. They take more energy to move and the heavier the rotating assembly is, the higher the stresses inside the engine are. That limits high RPM performance. The I6 in the Jeep will not be an acceleration king either because it has a good deal of rotating mass too. So either vehicle you go with, you're not getting any kind of high power performance out of it.

As far as Jetta specific performance, I'm not that well versed in VW's. You might want to hit some of the VW sites like http://www.vwvortex.com or http://www.tdiclub.com/


Posted by: Slow Nova

If you want to get a little crazy with the mods on a VW, visit www.eiptuning.com


Posted by: drummerwookie

well, if it means anything at all, i would keep the jeep, and save some money up and get the jetta later.....

I.E. im on this forum to learn about 2002 trans am WS-6's, and C5 Corvettes bc i plan on purchasing one or the other in the future...BUT, i want to wait till my jeep is paid off which wont be for another 54 months or so....so i have a LONG time to wait, but there is NO way in hell i would give up the jeep...i just cant wait for the day that i can look out the window to see a car that is fast as hell, and the jeep that can climb over my car that is fast as hell as a warm up in the morning..lol...a great pair they will be.....just gotta be patient

thats my .02


Posted by: LS1 Mopar Turbo

Ok you asked for it. All in the first 80,000 miles, and this car was pampered.
2 Netural park safety switches, bunch of broke interior crap.
2 Transmissions (automatic)
1 Coolant Migration through the wire that hooked up to coolant level indicator. Which caused the coolant light to always come on.
2 sets of Glow plugs, 2 glow plug wiring harnesses.
1 removal of the entire intake system to clean the carbon build up that was causing and intermittent check engine light, poor gas mileage and lack of power. Very common problem and a big pain in the ass!
POOR POOR POOR Service
VW Sucks.


Posted by: bl3wbyu

Well, yesterday and the day before I spent just about all my time on www.tdiclub.com, reading about what you can do with TDI's. Seems like there's a bunch of really happy TDI owners over there, with some pretty fast-sounding rides. I found it fairly easy to get into it...it all seemed fairly interesting. So I decided I could probably let go of my Jeep and settle for the Jetta.

Then I got in my Jeep to go somwhere and it smelled like something was burning...and my amp under my driver's seat was covered in what looked like dew...just covered. And I remembered how the steering is getting looser...and how the carpet under my feet is wet due to some new leak...and how I'll never, in reality, make time to work on it....So I was thinking that I could settle for a Jetta.

Then I got out and looked at the Jeep. Such a classic, timeless look. It will never die. It will never grow old. It will always be a Cherokee, and it will always look great. And it's glorious in its simplicity and capability, just an awesome all-around car. I want to keep the Jeep.

But then, I could always buy one for $2k one day later down the road. And I could be getting 52mpg now.

Argh.

I think I've finally made up my mind. If, come the beginning of the year, the guy still wants it and will pay close to $4k...I'll move on and see what a Jetta can have in store for me. If not, then I'll continue with my plans for the XJ.

Now I guess I'll just hafta wait and see.


Posted by: bl3wbyu

drummerwookie - You're right, having both would be perfect!!

Sorry to hear about your horrible experience, LS1MT. Man, that had to suck.


Posted by: LS1 Mopar Turbo

Well good luck with it...you are gonna need it.


Posted by: DeckSetter

uhoh......we've got another Jeeper.......

Jeeps are nice for what they are. I traded off my '95 Cherokee today. In almost 4 years and 63,500 miles I've had TONS of trouble with it, but it never left me stranded except for a flat tire (4 or 5 times, the donut spare wouldn't hold air and the factory jack wasn't tall enough for the 235 75R15s).

The A/C compressor went...

The rear brakes went, so I replaced the shoes, then they started making some weird tapping noise every time the wheel went around under braking...

It would jerk upon stopping, never did figure that one out...

The driver's seat BROKE where it bolts to the floor, so the front left corner would pull up if you leaned back and I had to fold the rear seat down flat to keep it sturdy...

It WwOoBbBbLlEeDd. Death wobble, they call it. Probably the sway bar bushings, but an alignment and new tires cured it for a year and a half...

Both the door catches just FELL OUT of the front doors. You know, the ones that will hold the door open or half open. They felt out randomly, never to be seen again...

All in all, MOST of it was just general maintenance stuff and I could have fixed it... except the UNDERBODY RUST. It was to the point that if I would have kept it around, I'm not sure the rear half of the Jeep would have followed the front half where it wanted to go in a couple more years. It doesn't help that it's a unibody. When a rock hit the windshield, the single chip spread 4 different directions, and 3 of those directions went clear to the edge.

The rear leaf springs sagged like crazy with hardly anything in the back. Common problem.

Oh, did I mention it burned a quart of oil every 2-3 weeks and lost coolant to an unknown location? All this by 164,500 miles. I put some miles on it, I know, and I think mine was probably a Friday afternoon car with all the random things that went wrong. Most Cherokees have problems, but not as many as mine.

Honestly, if it would have been reliable, that Jeep would have been AWESOME. It handled GREAT. I could deal with the rough ride (rougher than 1 ton trucks I've ridden in, you can blame the solid axle and short wheelbase). Power was GREAT from 3000-5000rpm, it would spin the rear tires from 30mph in the rain (don't try it, it will eat your right rear tire up REAL quick). It was a little small, but then again I'm 6'2'' 245lbs, so most things smaller than a half ton truck are too small for me. I once parked my Jeep in the middle of a snow drift BEHIND the barn. Opened driver's door to measure, 20". Opened passenger door to measure, 16". Put it in drive, pulled me right out.

If yours is reliable and not rusting away and you like it, try to talk your dad into keeping it! Just remember, you've been warned about problems, and you may not have most of them. I think heavy snow caused a lot of my underbody rust, but I don't really know. You should at least check yours though. If you take it through the mud, WASH IT WELL UNDERNEATH or it'll rust away like mine. Mine was even undercoated. A lot of good that did me...

Also, if you do keep it, put some 235 75's on it next time you need tires, but get a taller jack. TRUST ME. It'll fall off the factory jack when you try to get it to go high enough to clear the 235. I found this out on a Sunday afternoon when it almost fell on top of my friend. Otherwise, the 235s will look Awesome and give you a little more tread and height. Just enough to set it off, but not enough to rub without a lift.


Posted by: bl3wbyu

Thanks for your input, DeckSetter. Wow, you did have quite a few problems with yours. I haven't had ANY of those problems with my '95.

The ONLY things wrong with it:
small SMALL tear in the headliner
latch for center console broken
radiator replaced
thermostat replaced
crankshaft position sensor replaced
getting puddles under driver's side carpet
steering beginning to feel a bit looser

But that's EVERYTHING. The previous family who owned it (and bought it new) garage-kept it.

I know what you mean about breaking it loose in the rain! I should take a picture of my rear tires before I get them replaced, and I will. They are worn! Tuesday night I was on my way to Greensboro, and it was raining pretty dadgum hard. Well, I'm on the highway doing about 55 and I nail it. As soon as the RPM's hit 4000, the rear end breaks loose. Wow. What a feeling. I'm glad the XJ doesn't have a tendency to get sideways. On my way back home, I had decided I was going to play it safer, but this Ford Expedition was doing about 75 - 80 and got me in the mood, so I started to keep up with him. And then a straight stretch and an empty lane in front of me (still raining HARD...wipers on full speed...and I normally don't even use them in the rain), and I get up to about 80. Then I stand on it. Evertime I hit a bump or ran over an expansion joint on a bridge, the rear end would break loose for a second and the speedo would shoot to 85 real quick. Interesting experience. A little disconcerting, especially seeing as how the steering is getting looser and requires more input to keep it going straight.

I'm running Bridgestone Dueler HT P235/75R15 tires on it now, and actually haven't had a problem with the OEM jack. I've had to put on the spare twice, and the stock jack worked just fine both times.


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