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Need some car advice...
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Posted by: dead

Hello, I was wondering if you guys could help me out, or atleast point me in the right direction for a few things. I'm going to be posting this on a few other boards as well...

I have come to the realization that any car that looks fast or is labelled as a fast car, or even looks half decent, insurance will rape me up the ass. So I'm looking for an alternative, and have a bunch of questions. By the way, the car is not limited to an American car, but being easy to work with and generally have extremely cheap parts, I'd probably prefer one.

I'm looking for any car that's labelled as either a family car, a mother's car, a girl's car, whatever.. as long as it's not too girly. I'd prefer RWD and a manual transmission, just since I like the MT's control over the car much more. It should be fairly cheap to buy.. 5k and under? (Canadian prices by the way). Engine choice matters not, as long as the engine in the car is a very good platform to work with OR the frame can fit another nice but cheap engine.

Just to throw out a couple choices, I've sort of looked at a Chevy Corsica, which is cheap to insure, a Chevy Caprice (though I would prefer not going that heavy), and one of the crappier versions of a Ford Escort (I've read about the Cosworth.. dunno if it is possibly that an Escort can be modified to the Cosworth's performance, or if the Merkur is the equivalent, I haven't checked that out yet.) So yeah, a decent car that's not TOO beefy, preferably V8 material if it's a larger car, or a nice 4-banger to work with if it's a relatively light car. For some reason I'm against V6's, mostly because I feel if a domestic RWD car can fit a V6, I might as well be able to get a V8 in there. Gas consumption is hardly the issue here, that's much less expensive than insurance is.

So basically I'm looking for a nice cheap RWD MT platform to work with to make a fairly fast car.. I'd guestimate some ET's but I really have no idea.. maybe 14's?

I've also seen that a 383 stroker is fairly popular.. however I'm not really sure what the hell that is. A 350 with a 396 crankshaft or something...? Just random guessing.

Anyways, I really hope you guys can help me with some ideas. Thanks a lot.

Posted by: Grape Ape

383 Chevy is a 350 block and a small block 400 crank...or is that the other way around.. I'm tired.. Anyway, it's a combo of those two engines.

Are you looking for something with a frame(since you meantioned that), or just a "uni-body"(which you also mentioned)?

If you want a V8 powered RWD car, and not a really old one, you're almost gonna have to resort to a FoMoCo platform, or get the Caprice type.. None of those are available with a manual transmission though. Hmmmmm.... RWD, V8, standard tranny.... Hmmm... REALLY OLD car! heh. Sorry, but that's what you're lookin' at there..

From the sounds of it, you might wanna look into a full size pickup truck, which is available with the frame, the V8 and the RWD. Insurance isn't usually too bad on used ones from 95 back. And in that case, you may as well get what most pick up people do... a Ford F-150. Good luck.

Posted by: dead

Thanks for the reply.. after looking around a bit more tonight.. (I got some leads for crappy cars!), I think the cheap car that I was looking for probably won't be a RWD, even though I would seriously enjoy one.

I have been, in fact, looking at a Dodge Shadow Turbo 5 spd.. performance potential is probably an absolute no-go, but I wouldn't mind the car.

And by frame, sorry.. I meant the part of the car that isn't the engine

Wasn't trying to differentiate between construction types.. what I meant was a good platform that could possibly house a different engine.

I'm gonna be looking at some 4 cyl's as well, but any other V8 info would be appreciated.. they probably will be boats though now that I think about it unless you go REALLY old.. since there were only a few body styles circling around with v8's in the 80's (as far as I know).

I have no problem with trucks, but surprisingly enough, they're generally expensive to insure. I'll check it out just to make sure, but last time I checked it was a problem.

Edit: by the way, just wanted to ask, what's a FoMoCo platform? Thanks

Posted by: dead

Just an update.. I have a small plan in the works here.

Sorry to offend all you modern muscle car freaks with my k-car talk!

I can't afford a WS6 just yet...

Dodge Shadow ES (the ES package for the sport tuned suspension, nicer motor but read on)

Dodge has a 4 cyl DOHC 2.2L Turbo III that puts out 230 hp @ 11 psi. I could swap that into the Shadow later on down the road if I wanted more power.. rebuild of course, and I don't think the engine would be that expensive. If I rebuild with forged pistons/rods, I could run at a higher boost if the turbos can manage higher, and probably get more than 250 hp easily... anyway that seems like a good engine to work with, perhaps I should just save a RWD V8 for a good car?

Anyway tell me what you think please, this is very interesting to me though I'm not all that knowledgeable.. but if you knew me you'd realize how excited I get talking about any car AS LONG AS IT CAN SOMEDAY BE MINE

Posted by: EvilLS1

How about an early 80s Malibu like this one?

For some reason I like those cars.. It would be cheap to insure, good platform for a built V8, easy to work on, not too sporty but can look nice with some work (like the one above)..

Posted by: MikeT

I've got a link around here of a (basically) stock dodge daytona 2.2 that ran low 13's. I'll see if I can scrounge it up.

Another car you might consider is a ford thunderbird. You can't get a v8 w/ a manual though.

Your best options really are from the early 80's. Back before alot of cars became FWD pos's. They are cheap, but for the most part, ugly as hell.

Posted by: Grape Ape

If you buy a shadow(or anything else) with a turbo, you'll probably keep it that way. They weren't great outta the gate, but they would go, once moving.

The 78-87 Malibu, Monte Carlo and other similar GM's are still popular and you can put a nice engine into any of them. Most of them look pretty good, so long as you don't "gawdy them up" with shiny wheels...

Same with the T-bird from 80-97, but none came with a V8 and a manual. The T-bird would be very easy to make a manual though, since it did come with a manual using other engines during those years, you know the pedal assy. is available.

Posted by: dead

Thanks for the ideas, guys. I didn't think about the Malibu, but that's a good idea, I've seen a few of them, but they're tougher to find. I'll see if I can find any.. that's a pretty good idea. The Monte Carlo as well.

The Daytona 2.2 would be the same engine as in the Shadow, and since the Shadow is lighter.. that'd be a fast lil 4-banger.

The T-Bird seems a little big, but I'll check it out anyway.

And ugly as hell is no problem! I mean, I'm looking at a goddamn Shadow

Posted by: 65fairlane

I would look into a mid 90s Cougar XR-7, it would have to be an auto though. I have an unhealthy obsession with cougars, so it is my suggestion to everyone.

Posted by: dead

Hmm.. I can check that.. there are many things wrong with it so far, just judging from the name...

-it sounds expensive

-it sounds badass

-the XR-7 denotes SOME sort of coolness

The insurance company will see the name! So they'll say.. HEY, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A COOL CAR... NOT ALLOWED. And charge me 5k a year with no collision coverage. I'll check it anyway though

Posted by: MikeT

its just a slightly re-skinned t-bird.

Posted by: 65fairlane

I have an 87 LS, it is the base model with 3.8 V-6 and my insurance is really cheap. The XR-7 would be higher since it either has a 302 or a supercharged 3.8. The insurance still shouldn't be too high on it. An 89 XR-7 can be found with the 3.8 S/C engine and a 5 speed manual, the 3.8 is known for having head gasket problems, but if you have it changed for a set of Felpro's it should be okay. In 1991 they switched to the High Output 302 instead of the weak Standard Output. This is the more reliable engine, but it is only available with an automatice transmission. In 94 the 302 was dropped in favor of the mod motor, but the transmission was updated to one that is supposed to be a more reliable unit.

Posted by: StoneFox

A 2.3L Fox body. Its pretty easy to do the 5.0 swap. And as far as the insurance company knows its just a little economany car.

Posted by: RacingJason

Here ya go! I have personally built both these kinds of cars so I can wholeheartedly recomend them to you.

1.Any K car with a turbo 2, 3, or 4 in it. I had a nearly bone stock Shelby Charger I built for my wife to drive at the race track while we T-n-T on my car. She was beating up on all the Honda and Acura boys...I tried it and I ran a high 13 in it on radials no problem!

Cons:BAD shifters/linkage, WRONG wheel drive, weak chassis/driveline parts.

2.My personal favorite sleeper/beater is any fox body car except a Mustang. The Thunderbirds, Cougars, Fairmonts, etc. all use A LOT of parts that fit mustangs. We bought a 4 door Fairmont and a wrecked 5.0 Mustang that had some performance parts on it (3.73 8.8" rear too!) and BAM! instant tire smoking 4 door! Mine had a C-4 in it instead of the POS AOD...but a T-5 trans can just as easily drop right in!

Cons:Ugly, no resale value, nasty interior (depending on year and model)

Posted by: dead

Awesome, I was hoping someone here had some experiences with the Turbo series. I'll check out the Fox bodies as well, but it seems like the Shadow might be a good, really cheap car.

In what way did you modify the turbo engine? And did it still have the stock turbo on it? I've seen a lot of people with fast Shadows just by modifying the boost levels.. not even touching the inside of the engine. Seems to take some nice boost in stock form.

I'm specifically looking at the 1990 Shadow ES 5spd, since it comes with a Turbo IV VNT with 175 hp. Thanks

I'll also check the Cougar.. haven't yet. Is the 3.8 supercharged the 3800 and/or 3800 series II that's in the Grand Prix?

Posted by: 65fairlane

They ford 3.8 and the GM 3.8 are completely different engines. The GM one is better.

Posted by: Grape Ape

The GM 3800 is considered one of the best engines ever made. It's been proving itself worthy for many years and in many configurations. The Ford 3.8 was just another ordinary engine for most of it's years so far. But the supercharged 3.8's in the SuperCoupe and XR7's has done quite well, all things considered. To answer that question though, yeah, the 3.8 was available on those two models with a S/C, although not all models were(most weren't).

Posted by: RacingJason

Quote:


	Originally posted by dead Awesome, I was hoping someone here had some experiences with the Turbo series. I'll check out the Fox bodies as well, but it seems like the Shadow might be a good, really cheap car. In what way did you modify the turbo engine? And did it still have the stock turbo on it? I've seen a lot of people with fast Shadows just by modifying the boost levels.. not even touching the inside of the engine. Seems to take some nice boost in stock form. I'm specifically looking at the 1990 Shadow ES 5spd, since it comes with a Turbo IV VNT with 175 hp. Thanks I'll also check the Cougar.. haven't yet. Is the 3.8 supercharged the 3800 and/or 3800 series II that's in the Grand Prix?

We used a Direct Connection (Mopar Performance) computer and a fishtank air valve to crank the boost. Then we ported all the plastic inlet tracts and air box to give the edges a nice smooth finish...30 minutes work maximum. Just by smoothing all those edges seemed to add major HP...the boost level dropped by about 1 psi so when we cranked it back up it was pretty hardcore! (For a 4 banger)

I am not sure the Turbo 4 with a VNT came in many Shadows...the Iroc Daytona had the 224hp VNT Turbo4 and some C/S Daytona cars I have seen it in...not sure about how many shadows got it except for maybe the CSX Shelby types.

Good Luck!

Posted by: MadScientistMatt

I second a lot of the cars mentioned. Turbo K-cars can be a lot of fun. I used to have a $900 LeBaron; it was a total beater but I still miss it sometimes. I would have started with a less rusty example if I get back into the world of turbocharged K-cars. With the possible exception of the Daytona, insurance companies don't know about them. The rates on my LeBaron were "old man's luxury car" type rates. The turbo ones may also feel a bit sportier out of the box than many of the other suggestions.

Malibus (and the GM G-bodies: Monte Carlos, Grand Prixes, Regals, and Cutlasses from '78-'87) are another great choice. They have a lot of hop up potential, and the insurance people haven't caught on yet. Usually. A Monte Carlo SS might not be able to sneak by them.

The Fox-body Fords besides the Mustang (and perhaps the Mercury Capri, if the insurance company knows what that is) are also good choices. They were basically Ford's competition with the G-bodies. The biggest difference is that Fox bodies are unit-body while G-bodies use body on frame construction. A unit-body can be stiffer but the Fox bodies have a reputation for chassis flex. Not really a big deal unless you're building a really hardcore race car, though.

I have two other nominees nobody mentioned. One is a Volvo 240 Turbo from the mid '80s. It's easy to bring up the horsepower on these engines to around 200 - 250 with very little work (although V8 engines can have you beat if you want to go to 300 or beyond). They're also rear wheel drive, and pretty tough cars. And no insurance company is going to expect a teenager to go on a road rampage at the wheel of a Swedish brick. The second nominee is the Chrysler M-body. This is the Chrysler New Yorker and Dodge Diplomat from the '80s. They are definitely cheap, and come with an easy to hop up V8 engine. Hot Rod recently built a 400 hp 318 (plucked from a '84 Diplomat) for about $1500 in mods and a lot of dyno tuning time. They're heavy and nearly impossible to find with a stick shift, though.

The Merkur XR4Ti is not related to the Escort at all. They are turbocharged RWD cars that are worth looking into if you can find one in good shape. The engine is the same 2.3 Turbo found in the SVO Mustang and Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, but this is in a German body shell and I think it uses an independant rear suspension.

Lastly, cars you listed to avoid. The US / Canadian Escort has nothing in common with the Cosworth Escort. I have heard of Escorts built for autocross but they're losers in the horsepower department. And the Chevy Corsica is pretty much impossible to tweak - there are a few parts from Mantapart, but at what they charge, you might as well buy a Mustang.

Posted by: dead

Thanks for the info...

after much research I have realized that insurance for me right now is quoted as follows:

$3500-4000 + any sort of extras for any vehicle that may possibly be fast and decent.

As in, I've gotten quotes for a Shadow at $6000 a year... the best I've seen was $3800, which was actually a false quote, and not viable anyway.

So yeah, that's the ultimate piss off of my entire life. Thanks for the suggestions anyway...

I've now been considering an 89 or up Mustang GT 5.0 to hop up for fun and cheapness. Since I cannot drive the car anyway, it'd be a project for a while. I've read up on many Mustangs that break 10's with a turbocharger and many stock components, and although I don't plan on hitting 10's with a street car that can retain decent mileage, it seems I can get into a nice range for not a lot of money. In fact, I may make another post for that....

Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:


	Originally posted by dead I've now been considering an 89 or up Mustang GT 5.0 to hop up for fun and cheapness. Since I cannot drive the car anyway, it'd be a project for a while. I've read up on many Mustangs that break 10's with a turbocharger and many stock components, and although I don't plan on hitting 10's with a street car that can retain decent mileage, it seems I can get into a nice range for not a lot of money. In fact, I may make another post for that....

You probably don't wanna shoot for 10's right away, true. But the single or twin turbo Mustangs you read about running 10's with stock heads and so forth are based on turbos designed for this setup and fuel mileage is largely UNeffected. Most still claim 17cty/25hwy mpg and that's awesome. Problem is, a turbo system for a Mustang5.0 still isn't cheap. :sad:

Oh, and installation can't be easy either.

Posted by: 65fairlane

You can get some power for cheap with a junkyard turbo setup build out of old turbocoupe parts, and some new ones. It won't get you to 10s, but it will get you some more power for relatively cheap.

Posted by: dead

Well the Mustang won't be a budget vehicle, other than initially paying for it (obviously plan on putting much more $$$ worth of mods into the car than the car is worth itself).

I've been looking around a bunch of different buildups, and some of the cars I have no idea how they can get into 9's, etc. with their setup. It seems very odd, since all the mods are fairly inconsistent with each other, and some Mustangs don't even need a lot of adjustment to run that fast.

Looking at a Mustang, I was thinking about rebuilding the engine (since it will be old...), don't know if I should bother replacing internals or getting a 347 stroker kit, that might be expensive. But then getting a Vortech or Paxton supercharger, running about 20 lbs of boost, upgraded fuel system, ignition, cylinder head, intake, and just getting those valve exhaust pipes where you can direct the flow of air for open headers or running through the exhaust.. oh, and some non engine stuff, though I'm really not sure what other than new gears.

Wait, that's like 10k probably.. shit! hehe.. Well, minus the stroker kit and maybe a remanufactured/used supercharger, I could get it down to a more reasonable price.

Posted by: 65fairlane

Personally I would stay away from a stroker kit on a car that I planned to drive daily.

Posted by: ImportFyghter

How about a 2nd generation Z24? they look sporty and are pretty torquey off the line..do some mods and maybe some juiced and youll have a hell of a little sleeper. i cant out runnew Z28's or anything but if you own a pretty much stock fox bodied stang or an older 80's camaro with a 305 you better watch out!

Posted by: dead

Yeah, I've seen some pretty damn fast Z24's... I'll research those as well, see what kind of info I can dig up. Thanks

Would a stroker be very unreliable and mainly race-bred? These are things you don't really learn from reading up on product info, heh.

Posted by: 65fairlane

I don't have any experience with strokers, I have hear that they can be less than reliable and a little tempermental for the daily driver. A 351w will bolt in place of a 302 though. Just a thought if a lot of mod money is going to be floating around. The Cav would be a good daily driver. I would probably buy something like that and wait until I had the money saved up then buy a mustang or another project.

Posted by: ShelbyTurbo2.2

Go with a turbo dodge... they are pretty quick stock and really cheap to make fast... The insurance for mine anyway is not bad... considering im 15 w/ a turbo car... go with a TD...

Posted by: ImportFyghter

my buddy owns a turbo shadow..that things the biggest dog ive ever riddin in. Go with a Z24 or a base cav with a 3.1 in it..there's lots of potential in these cars. A guy on j-body slapped a turbo on one and runs 12.7's and the car is daily driven. Or you can do a supercharged 3800 swap out of a GTP..240HP in a car slightly under 3000 pounds

Posted by: MikeT

Quote:


	Go with a turbo dodge... they are pretty quick stock and really cheap to make fast... The insurance for mine anyway is not bad... considering im 15 w/ a turbo car... go with a TD...

If your looking for cheap/quick easy to mod. Its hard to beat the turbo dodges. I woudln't bother with a cavilear if your looking for a fast car.

Why are your insurance quotes so much? You're not planning on geting comp + collision are you?

Posted by: Grape Ape

I think factory turbo cars of any make are gonna give you an advantage. Of course, I prefer the Mustang SVO version over most. That's mostly because I prefer RWD... I really liked the Conquest, way back when.. THAT car was neat!

Posted by: dead

My insurance quotes are a lot because of my age, no comp or collision...

I have a car available to me that I could have gotten with a very lenient payment plan had I been able to get insurance.. so now I'm just looking for a project that I can do until my insurance goes down to a reasonable level.

Posted by: MikeT

Quote:


	so now I'm just looking for a project that I can do until my insurance goes down to a reasonable level.

when I turned 21 my insurance wetn down about 1,000. Hope your not planning on waiting that long.

Posted by: dead

Hehe, that would really really suck. If it takes that long or longer, I'll just dump all my cash into a pure drag car and trailer it in :P

Damn insurance companies. I've checked almost every possible insurance company in my area... just a few more left, though they don't seem too promising either.

So new thread topic! Fun performance V8, and I'm not partial to any make. Though it should retain some street driveability and more than 5 mpg

Posted by: MadScientistMatt

"Payment plan?" That may be why your insurance costs were so high. My payment plan on the LeBaron was 100% down and no future worries about payment (not too hard since the car was less than a month's pay and I still lived with my parents at the time). That way, I just needed liability coverage. Also, I think while you may have escaped the insurance bite for sports cars, what might have nailed you with P-bodies (Sundances, Shadows) was that they were cheap cars often bought by teenagers when they were new. So they had a higher accident rate. One of the more upmarket K-cars (yeah, I know, that sounds like an oxymoron!) like a LeBaron, Lancer, or various mid to early '80s luxury cars will probably be cheaper to insure. Also, shop around as some insurance companies will notice the turbo and some won't.

Posted by: dead

Err, by payment plan.. well yes, I meant payment plan, however it was being bought through a family member. I'll check the LeBaron and Lancer, thanks.. but I'm pretty sure it's not dependant on the car.

Posted by: Shell33

Know what you mean about Malibu and Monte Carlo being hard to find. All the one's around here someone owns. Saw one for sale one day it was gone the next. I got mine a few years ago. She's my baby (besides my kid) love her to death! Black primer and I call her "Christine". Ever seen that movie? Well I'm new on this site thought I'd say hello to everyone here!

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