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Grape,Stone,Killer.......

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Posted by: Tang

Ok, Im fed up with chasing error codes, etc.

Can you fellas tell me what to ask for my parts I'm gonna have left over after a carb swap ?

Factory Intake
70mm Edelbrock Throttle Body and EGR spacer
73mm C&L Air Meter
9" K&N
March Ram Air kit
EEC-IV
Superchip Performance Module
Stock 19lb injectors
Stock TFI Distributor

So what will that stuff bring ?

Now onto my next question. How do I get my fuel pump and factory tach to work ? I know I will need a regulator to keep the pressure in check . But will I even be able to keep using the stock pump ?

I REALLY need some help here. Will a '85 Distributor and ignition work ?


Posted by: StoneFox

Get you a Stock duraspark style distributer with an MSD 6A box. You may be able to use the stock pump, but I would go with a Holley blue. And a 575cfm Speed Demon Carb on an Air gap.

Factory Intake $65 to $75
T-body $100-$115 maby more
$20 for the K&N
$75 to $80 for the computer
Distributer, about $50
not to sure about the rest


Posted by: Grape Ape

For starters, read this thread... Stock pump with carb. That should cover your question pretty well. In a nutshell, it can be done.

Without the ECM, I don't think the factory tach will work, as it's run by the computer in conjunction with most of the dash guages.

As for selling the old parts, I'll agree with SF on most of that, although I think you can get more for the stock distributor(about $100 MAX) and definitely more for the ECM, especially if it's an A9L. Those commonly bring $115-125, and I've seen them sell for $150 on rare chance. The module is touchy, but you might get $75 for it. And the factory intake rarely brings in much at the events. I've had at least 1 just given to me in the past.

MAM can bring $75, but I'm only guessing since it's for 19 lb. inj.
Ram Air Kit won't offer much, but you might find someone willing to give $50 for it.
Inj. might bring $50 or so, but don't count on it, being more, since most people are upgrading from those.

Regardless of the rest, my choices on the distributor/ignition replacement would be ordering an MSD Pro-Billet and 6al ignition. Then get a good tach too. While the DuraSpark has proven to work, once you get into the high performance end, it will prove practically useless to you in terms of it's overall capabilities. It's not made for high rpm(above 6500) and it's rather large/bulky as well as not being able to properly accommodate tachs and other electronics later.

For the intake and carb, I'd at least consider a Holley or Speed Demon 600cfm unit and I'd look over the different intakes before deciding on an Edelbrock in the end. I'd prolly get a dual plane. There's my .02 worth. I use MSD, btw, and I like it.


Posted by: Tang

Yes, mine is a A9L, I had it out today.

The MAF, Im not sure what its calibrated for, I was guessing 24's, but I dont know how to tell. A Boy just asked me if I wanted to buy a C&L/Vortech maf for $75 (this was 2 years ago,and it was new) so I was like, yea sure.

Honestly the Ram Air kit is a POS if you've ever used one. I only use the airbox. The damn scoop just vaccums shit off the road.

Either way, maybe I can get some out of my old stuff to cover part of the carb swap.


Posted by: StoneFox

Quote:
For the intake and carb, I'd at least consider a Holley or Speed Demon 600cfm unit and I'd look over the different intakes before deciding on an Edelbrock in the end.



Do they Make a 600cfm Demon? I think it goes from 575 to 650. I think a Speed Demon 650cfm would be a bit much for his setup. He could go with a Holley but Demon is a much better carb for the little more that they cost.


Posted by: StoneFox

Oh yea I priced the computer that low because at work I sell that same A9L unit rebuilt for about $120


Posted by: Tang

So rough guessing, I can get about $300 +/- out of my old stuff.

If I could get some good deals on Ebay that would rock !


Posted by: Tang

Hows this for a Distributor ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=2437857202


Posted by: Tang

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=2437807069


Posted by: StoneFox

I wouldnt have a problem using a stock distributer, but I wouldnt use the duraspark modual. Go with an MSD box


Posted by: Grape Ape

I don't think there's any Speed Demon smaller than a 650. However, once it's jetted properly, the added airflow characteristics won't likely hurt anything. For a lower cfm(625), he'll be looking at a Road Demon. That carb isn't as good as the others for a "racing type" application. Personally, I prefer my Holley 850 over my Race Demon 1000 for the most part. The Demon is "tricky" due to all it's adjustable features and the Holley is adequate for my concerns, not being a huge carb person.

He could go with the Road Demon Jr. and get a 525cfm carb for only $310(W/ Ford kickdown linkage) or so. There's a lower priced version too, but it's got a manual choke. It might do well, but why limit yourself to a carb that could need replacement with a head swap or even less work than that. I'm just thinking he'll modify more in the future.

The difference between him selling an A9L at an event or to someone elsewhere, and your selling them at work is, once his is sold, the person buying it doesn't have an additional (roughly) $80.00-120.00 core charge to deal with. Remans always have a core charge and the guy looking for one who doesn't have one isn't going to want to come up with that added fee.

I'd say $250-350 is a good or fair expectation for the old parts.


Posted by: StoneFox

Quote:
Originally posted by Grape Ape
I don't think there's any Speed Demon smaller than a 650. However, once it's jetted properly, the added airflow characteristics won't likely hurt anything. For a lower cfm(625), he'll be looking at a Road Demon. That carb isn't as good as the others for a "racing type" application. Personally, I prefer my Holley 850 over my Race Demon 1000 for the most part. The Demon is "tricky" due to all it's adjustable features and the Holley is adequate for my concerns, not being a huge carb person.

He could go with the Road Demon Jr. and get a 525cfm carb for only $310(W/ Ford kickdown linkage) or so. There's a lower priced version too, but it's got a manual choke. It might do well, but why limit yourself to a carb that could need replacement with a head swap or even less work than that. I'm just thinking he'll modify more in the future.

The difference between him selling an A9L at an event or to someone elsewhere, and your selling them at work is, once his is sold, the person buying it doesn't have an additional (roughly) $80.00-120.00 core charge to deal with. Remans always have a core charge and the guy looking for one who doesn't have one isn't going to want to come up with that added fee.

I'd say $250-350 is a good or fair expectation for the old parts.



They make a Speed Demon 575cfm #1282020. I guess I prefer Demon Carbs over Holley because I have had horible luck with Holleys, and damn good luck with Demons.

If Im not mistaken Demon rates there carbs diffrent than Holley. A 650 Demon is way more carb than a 650 Holley.

The 351w thats going in my Mustang is gonna get a 650 Mighty Demon.

Oh, and your dead on about the core charge. I honestly never thought about that being a factor.


Posted by: Tang

found everything I needed on using my stock pump. Just use a bypass style regulator and put the pump on a toggle switch,


Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:
Originally posted by 89StoneFox
They make a Speed Demon 575cfm #1282020.
If Im not mistaken Demon rates there carbs diffrent than Holley. A 650 Demon is way more carb than a 650 Holley.

I didn't know that. The smallest I've ever seen was a 650, but I'd read about the Demon Jr. and the 625cfm Road Demon.

Quote:
Originally posted by 89StoneFox
The 351w thats going in my Mustang is gonna get a 650 Mighty Demon.

If you don't already have the 650, a 750 might be a thought for one reason. Upgrades later. You can always jet it down for less fuel, but you can't necessarily get more air when you need it. I guess it depends on the plans though. If you know it's going to be enough, that's that.
Quote:
Originally posted by 89StoneFox
If Im not mistaken Demon rates there carbs diffrent than Holley. A 650 Demon is way more carb than a 650 Holley.

Well yes, but the Holley HP series is very much like the Demon carb. Mine isn't an HP, but it works flawlessly. Holleys are tough to tune, but so are Demons when you get into the high end of their use. There's just several parts that can be changed for the best tuning.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
found everything I needed on using my stock pump. Just use a bypass style regulator and put the pump on a toggle switch

Of course you did! That's why I gave you that link. We did one about 2 1/2 yrs ago and it's still in use. Happened to be a neighbors car and he didn't wanna spend the extra cash, so we "experimented" a little and figured out it really works. His car only runs 13.80's in regular daily driven form, but that's what you're looking for right now anyway. I think you could manage 12's and still use that system, but you might want a more powerful pump for 12's. He didn't use a switch though. It's hard wired into his ignition, just as the factory did it, but we had to change 2 wires on the pump. I lead you there because it was already fully discussed so you could see several points of view on the subject.


Posted by: Giz

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
found everything I needed on using my stock pump. Just use a bypass style regulator and put the pump on a toggle switch,



the better way is like the factory did use a 2 terminal oil pressure switch that will shut down the pump if the motor dies that way if you crash or a fuel line breaks the pump shuts down

Giz


Posted by: VETTKLR

Dude, that MSD distributor on ebay is good to go. Brand new price is over $200, so I'd bid it up to $85-100 and see what happens.

I've still got my factory vaccum advance from the 302. I guarantee it's in excellent shape. If you can't get the MSD dizzy, let me know.


Posted by: Tang

So guys, Vaccum or Mechanical secondaries and why ?

Mechanical seems cool, but I'd guess if you kicked it down too soon it would flood out.

I dont know much about carbs, any help would be nice...lol

I was thinking just go with a Performer RPM intake and a 600 Edelbrock carb with manual choke. But still open to suggestions. Im getting a good game plan before I go to tearing into it.


Posted by: Tang

oh yea, you guys were discussign Demons.

The Road Demon comes in:
525, 625,and 725

Speed Demon comes in:
Mechanical- 575,650,750,850
Vaccum-575,650,750,850

I also wonder about the Street Avenger Holleys , or maybe just go with a classic and get a Holley 600 double pumper.

Ahhhhh too many choices...lol


Posted by: Grape Ape

I like the Edelbrock carb. for general usage. For something that you'll want to tune later, I'd avoid it, as it's just too basic. The intake is a choice I'd go with without question.

I'd opt for mechanical secondaries, but I'm not sure I'd want manual choke where it gets chilly outside. Why not vacuum? Because I like nitrous! Mechanical secondary carbs. seem to work just fine anyway. If you're concerned about overfueling, get a good carb. and you'll be able to adjust it on many levels to fit your needs. There's so much to carbureators in general, I wouldn't want to try explaining all of it, even if I was a carb. guru... You'll quickly see that you can adjust many many items on a good one.


Posted by: Tang

Well a 575 Speed Demon would feed my mild 302 just fine, a Speed Demon is suppose to be a good carb right ? Well they better be anyway for what they cost. They do look nice.

Going to suck when I have to buy a bigger carb later on.


Posted by: VETTKLR

That Edel. 600 vac. sec. carb and Performer RPM intake is exactly the first thing I did to my 302. The factory carb is a Holley 585 cfm or something like that.

The car dropped from a 15.6 to a 14.9 with the slightly larger carb and better breathing intake. You could pick up that 625 cfm Road Demon and be good to go.

Since it's getting close to the end of the year, why don't you yank it all apart, buy some nice heads, cam and a 650 DP and call it good! Tax returns are just around the corner!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang

Going to suck when I have to buy a bigger carb later on.




You'll either have to step it up gradually, or you'll have one helluva mismatched system. You're gonna' have to bite the bullet and pick up the 575-625 carb now or start piecing together a badboy right off the bat!

Honestly, I enjoyed the natural progression of what my car has turned out to be. It was fun and educational to take those first baby steps before I dove right in to a monster Twisted Wedge
C-5 slayer! The only thing that sucks there is that you're gonna' get walked all over by those Brand X-ers until you kick it up a notch or 5!

Have you checked out ebay for any carb or intake deals?


Posted by: Tang

Yup, just waiting to save up some more, the trans and quadrant hurt me..lol


Posted by: Tang

I found this, Killer, wanna spot me a grand or so ?

Performer RPM intake

600 Edelbrock Carb

Bare Twisted Wedge Heads


Posted by: Grape Ape

By the time you buy a set of heads like those and the proper valves, you may as well buy new heads straight from Summit(or wherever) for under $1,100. Then you' get a warranty as well as the knowledge of someone to tell you which pushrods and rockers you need to use.

The intake looks suitable, but what's a new one cost? Can't be more than $180, for sure. I'd expect it's somewhere near $140.

The carb looks decent, since it's rebuilt, but ya never know. They sell for about $199 new and are a common stocking item at many auto parts stores.

I took part in an intake upgrade recently and, when I asked about new heads I was told that would have to wait due to funds. I can understand that and I did the same thing when I started. It seems you never have the needed cashflow to build a car when it's starting as stock. Obviously, there are so many directions to look in, you don't wanna just rush into it anyway. I really like TFS heads though, and would always consider waiting till I could get a set before building. Sometimes though, you just can't afford them when you can't afford to NOT have the car running. That's how it goes, huh..


Posted by: StoneFox

I would stay away from that carb. If you go with an Edelbrock you can pick up a new #1405 for about $230 and a factory reman #9905 for about $200.

The intake seems like a decent buy, but if it gets much higher I would pass on it.

An Air Gap and a 575 Speed Demon, or 650 jetted down like Grape said would be my choice. I would go Mechanical secondarys and no choke, but I live in south east Texas. Its never cold enough to need one


Posted by: Tang

Well , I know they arent the greatest in the world, and prolly wont be any better than my E7's. But I'm having the 351W heads I have shaved down to make 10:1 on my 302, maybe some port work and a good valve job.

That, with the air gap and a 575 Speed Demon should give me more power than I have now. Right ? Ofcourse I'll add some 1 5/8 headers too.

Surely that will get me up near 300fwhp right ?


Posted by: StoneFox

B303 cam right?

It sould be pretty stout with that combo. Alot depends on what they do with the heads


Posted by: Grape Ape

It would likely make much more than 300fwhp and might make 265-270rwhp when tuned. I still don't think you should get that small carburetor though. What yr. are the 351W heads you have? Any after 1976 or so aren't going to do you many favors, as Ford used the small valves in those. They also used a larger combustion chambers beginning in '78(I think). That means more decking may be needed to gain compression.


Posted by: Tang

Yeap, B-303. You guys tell me what needs to be done tot he heads, Im new to this.

I think the '70 casting 351W heads have 59.5-61cc chambers (I think thats what my book said). The E7's have 58's correct ? It takes 5cc's to raise it one compression point. Im just worried about piston to valve clearence if I shave that much off.

My motor was rebuilt before I got the car, and I dont know if they bored it or not, and if it still has the forged slugs in it. I just want my car to run low 8's in the 1/8 on drag radials. Maybe add a 75shot later on.


Posted by: Tang

The block on the 351W is a C9 casting and the heads are D0's, which is the same as the C9 heads.


Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
Yeap, B-303. You guys tell me what needs to be done tot he heads, Im new to this.

I think the '70 casting 351W heads have 59.5-61cc chambers (I think thats what my book said). The E7's have 58's correct ? It takes 5cc's to raise it one compression point. Im just worried about piston to valve clearence if I shave that much off.

My motor was rebuilt before I got the car, and I dont know if they bored it or not, and if it still has the forged slugs in it. I just want my car to run low 8's in the 1/8 on drag radials. Maybe add a 75shot later on.

While the numbers vary from person to person, Ford listed them at 60.4cc through 1976 or 77. If you have 70's, there's no doubt they are in that range. All they really need is a cc cleanup, but people do varied amounts of porting & polishing to their tastes and bank accounts. They do have larger ports than the 302 heads though. E7's are usually figured like the 351W heads, with varying cc's anywhere from 59-61cc.

I asked someone about clearance on theirs the other day, after he mentioned cutting them down and using oversized valves and a larger cam. You'll want to plasti-guage them to be sure. Or at least turn the engine over by hand after installation.

Once you tear it down, you should easily be able to tell if it was bored by looking at the pistons, which should be marked. If not, just break out the slide capiler and check 'em. With the setup you have in mind, you should reach your goals when all is done.


Posted by: Tang

If I'm not mistaken, if it will run 8.0-8.20 on drag radials, that will be mid 12's in the 1/4. Which to me, is a fairly respectable street car. Then maybe with some ET Streets and a 75 shot it will go 11's ??? Im just guessing there.


Posted by: Grape Ape

Expect almost identical ET's with drag radials as you'll see with ET Streets. Just keep in mind, there are guys running low 8's with BFG's and 9's have been commonplace for years now. With that in mind, you should still see 11's on those if you can get there at all, which you should with a 100-125 shot. I wouldn't expect it to be a given with only a 75 shot, though it could happen.


Posted by: Tang

I dont know about 100 shot until I get around to rebuilding it again, and when I do that I'm gonna try to use stronger stuff. Such as a forged crank and h-beam rods I decided even tho stroker kits are cool, I think a forged bottom 306 would be sweet.

When I do all that, it will have a Victor Jr intake, AFR 185 heads, 700-750 carb, custom Comp roller, MSD ignition and maybe 1 3/4 headers. But, thats my dream, just gotta take it at one piece at a time.


My motor runs good, still got good compression, it dont smoke, but the miles are getting up in the 75k range on it atleast, Like I said the gears messed the odometer up so I don't know exactly.

My friend Daniel had a 10psi Procharger on a stock bottom '94 GT with 120k miles on it, it made 436rwhp.

Right now, I'm saving for the carb, intake and ignition. A complete gasket set, new clutch and headers.


Posted by: Grape Ape

Your stock crank and rods can handle oodles of power. It's the block that can't take it forever. Use a girdle and that will survive 500rwhp for a long time. I had over 81,000 on mine when it gave out(no girdle). It didn't make 500rwhp, but it was over 400 all day with the nitrous on. That was a .040 over stock component short block(except cam and rings). If I wanted a strong 306, I'd rebuild with H-beam rods and have it balanced & blueprinted, add a girdle and go on with business. If anything else, maybe I'd get the crank nitrided, but that's it if not going stroker.

Save now for the heads too, get the 650cfm carb(good for 10's) and you're almost there. You'll be happily surprised how well that can run.


Posted by: VETTKLR

Once you get into that block, throw out all the bolts and get some brand new ARP hardware.


Posted by: Tang

So what do I need to tell the machine shop to do to my 351 heads ? Keep the stock valves ?


Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
So what do I need to tell the machine shop to do to my 351 heads ? Keep the stock valves ?

Unless you know you'll have clearance with 1.94's, you may as well keep the stock valves.


Posted by: Tang

69-76 heads all use 1.85 and 1.54 valves with 60cc chambers.

I dont know how accurate the site is that came from tho, cuz is also said 69-78 heads all use rail rockers. Which isnt true. A lot had non adjustable indivdual rocker arms, as mine do. It also says Early 351 heads flowed around 130cc on the intake .

1969-70 2bbl- 250 h. @ 4600, 355 p torque @ 4600, 9.5 compression

1969-71 stock camshaft specs
C-9OZ-6250-A
Duration Int.- 256 degrees
Exh- 270 degrees
Lift Int- .425
Exh-.450

Pushrod length:

1969-76 8.170 inches
Roller lifter conversion length: 7.965 inches

.030 over bore= 357.8 cubic inches
.040 over bore= 359.1 cubic inches (max overbore for a 351)


Posted by: VETTKLR

Keep in mind, I have a few of the things you'll need...

You know about the 302 Dist.
BBK Equal Length Shorties
Mac 2.5" Off-Road H-pipe
2.5" Dynomax Super Turbos Dumped

Accel 300+ Digital Ignition Box and matching Super Coil

Whenever you're ready to put the hurt back on your wallet, give me a shout.


Posted by: VETTKLR

Check out these roller rockers for those pedestal heads, Tang.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=2437488526


Posted by: Grape Ape

The term "rail style" might just mean they aren't staggered. In 1968, Ford started making all small block heads w/ "positive stop" non-adjustable rocker arms. In 1978, they changed the rockers to a guttered fulcrum style stamped rocker. Some used studs and some used bolts.


Posted by: Tang

VETTKLR , check ur PM's.

I cant wait to do more on it, just gotta work as funds see fit.

The 351 heads will just suffice until I can get some AFR's, or maybe some Trick Flow R's ...lol


Posted by: Grape Ape

TrickFlow "R" heads.... Can you say "OVERKILL" ??


Posted by: Tang

That was sarcasam...lol It would then have as about as much bottom end torque as a 5hp Briggs & Stratton


Posted by: Tang

I found out the E7's flows 156 cfm on the intake side at .500

Well if my 351 heads only flow 130 on the intake side, is there gonna be any thing gained there ?


Posted by: Tang

How about the Thumper E7 heads ? They flow 219 on the intake side at .500" for $700

http://thumperoforangepark.com/


Posted by: VETTKLR

Save that $700 for the AFR's.

My opinion on working over stock cast iron heads:

Unless someone gives you a smokin' deal on some GT-40's, NOT GT-40P's, save the greenbacks for some real heads.

Also, I like those Trick Flow cams over any Motorsport Alphabet Cam.


Posted by: Tang

It makes sense, because Ford used identical lift and duration on the intake and exhuast. And everybody knows the SBF needs all the help it can get on the exhaust side.

I looked at the TrckFLows. The one I like the looks of, you guys are probably going to tell me it's too much for what I'm going for.

They have 3 listed here.

275º/279º .499/.510
286º/294º .542/.563
298º/310º .574/.595

I like the 286/294 . That thing should have a mean sounding idle, but it might be too much. The Air Gap intake builds from 1500-6500 tho, so the cam shouldnt be too far off. Whats your suggestion ? I'll sell the B-Cam and use part of it to fund the TF cam.


Posted by: 65fairlane

What is so bad about the 'p' heads besides the exhaust issues?


Posted by: Grape Ape

I know some people who have what we commonly refer to as "The #2 TFS cam" and it is pretty nice. This is a cam I'd certainly use in any roller 302 with good heads and 1.6 roller rockers. It doesn't sound very lumpy to me, and it's definitely street friendly.

You'll not likely see me recommend any "square cam," beit a Ford or otherwise. I just don't care for them.


Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:
Originally posted by 65fairlane
What is so bad about the 'p' heads besides the exhaust issues?

They're iron. If you're upgradin a 5.0HO, there's just too many benefits in aluminum heads to bother with anything iron, unless you're building a class specific vehicle that's required to use factory iron heads.


Posted by: Tang

The B-cam was free ...lol It was in the motor already when I got it.


Posted by: Tang

Will I see any power increase between the B-303 and #2 TF ? 5-6 hp ?


Posted by: VETTKLR

Actually, for a naturally aspirated, street driven 302, the Stage 1 is the best for your application.

If you're throwing an S-Trim on her...That Stage 2 cam is the hot ticket.

Proof:

My old 302 wasw packing a Twisted Wedge E-cam combo. (220/220 Duration @ .050)

My car could run circles around another Twisted Wedge Mustang in town with that Stage 2 cam (224/232 Duration @ .050) when he was naturally aspirated. When we built his car, it was built in stages. Heads, cam, intake all went on first. His car was faster than with the stock stuff, but nothing fascinating. HOWEVER, when you slap a blower on that setup, you need to get the fuck out of the way!

That Stage 2 cam is the hot ticket for a blower setup. The stage 1 is more along the Intake duration of the e-cam with a little more duration on the exhaust.

I suggest selling the B-cam on ebay or some shit and spend a little cash on the Trick Flow Stage 1 cam ($140 in Summit)



Fairlane...that's just it..those P heads require a different header that will add at least $200 to the initial investment of some heads. Thats $200 closer to some real-deal Holyfields!

The only guys that need those cast iron GT-40 heads are the guys in the NMRA Factory Stock classes. poor bastards.


Posted by: 65fairlane

yeah, I guess the headers are pretty expensive. I would never buy the heads new, but I thought about trying to find a set cheap from a wrecker for the fairlane, then with the money I saved on getting the heads would make up the difference for the headers. I thought maybe there was another reason to avoid them. I thought they might be just the ticket for a mild 289.


Posted by: VETTKLR

Trick Flow High ports are just the trick for anything!!!

They're inline-valve heads, unlike their Twisted Wedge and 'R' cousins, so you can use them on any piston with the factory piston notches. They are nice off the shelf, and downright badmotherfuckers when you work them over.

Everybody start saving up and call Brian @ T.E.A to go fast!!!


Posted by: Grape Ape

Brian recommended Stage 2 "R" heads for me. I got 'em and I'm happy.

I like the Stage 2 cam, but I'll agree, it's better for power adder engines. Ranger uses that cam in his pickup along with stock 1.94int. valved Edelbrock heads(6025's I think) and he ran 12.4@109 on motor, as I recall. I'll ask him for specifics if anyone cares. That's a rolling BRICK too. Not too heavy, but has the aerodynamics of a common block wall... As many of us know, his truck made over 310 N/A rwhp too.


Posted by: StoneFox

Hey Tang, I just bought a set of Twisted wedge heads from a guy. He threw in a Trick Flow cam. I dont know which one it is yet becaues its still in his block, and I didnt think to ask him. But if your intrested I will soon find out


Posted by: VETTKLR

cha-ching.


*Get some more info on that Ranger...I'm always down for some new info on stuff.


Posted by: Grape Ape

Okay, I'll call him tomorrow and see where I'm wrong. . This much, I do think I know. It's a 1990 Ranger 2wd. It weighs about 3200 lbs., uses a Tremec 3550 trans w/ McLoed clutch, 3.73 gears(in a MotorSport 8.8 Ranger rear), 26" tires, factory Mustang ECM(no chip) which I believe is an A9L, 24 lb. injectors, 65mm TB/SP, Pro-M mam 75 or 77mm(not sure which), Pro-M calibrator, Edelbrock Performer 5.0 intake w/ extrude-honed lower MSD-6al ignition, and the TFS Stage 2 cam and Edelbrock heads already mentioned. The block is a 302HO, stock rebuild(no overbore or added stroke) with factory original crank, pistons and rods.

The headers are aftermarket(obviously) longtubes and I believe they're 1 1/2" primaries. The rest of the exhaust is likely 2 1/4" cat-back. It also has an electric fan and uses a 4.0L Ranger radiator(2 row aluminum). It has P/S, P/B, HTR, but is missing some A/C components. It also has an iol filter relocation kit and aftermarket motor mounts.

That's quite a bit of info on a truck I don't own, but I've put some time into it myself and he got the intake from me, pre-honed, and probably the injectors too.

As for the cost of my Stage 2 heads, I got a great deal on them, but yes, they were expensive. They happened to be the 1st set of stage 2's like this, and he ended up using them for his CNC setup. Mine are hand ported. Since I wanted specific flow numbers, he tried a new thought on the port job. It obviously worked quite well. Prior to that, the numbers these heads reach were considered Stage 3. At least that's what he told me in 2001.


Posted by: Tang

Well, I did my research on the 351 heads. They aren't worth the trouble. Even ported they won't flow as good as ported E7's, they have a horrible exhaust port.

Now I know 300fwhp won't happen.

1 5/8 headers
Super Turbos Dumped
#1 Trick Flow cam
Air Gap
575 Speed Demon
Accel ignition and coil

Well Unless ofcourse Stone wants to let those heads go real cheap :eyebrow:

So what kinda of horsepower will it make with stock E7's ?


Posted by: Grape Ape

I made 265 or so with ported E7's, a Lunati cam(split duration), an Edelbrock Performer 5.0 intake, and 70mm TB/SP. The MAM was still stock then. Still managed 12.60's in the 1/4 mile on slicks with 3.73 gears and a B&M TransPak installed in the AOD.


Posted by: Tang

265 ?! thats very depressing, I'm starting to miss my LS1 again.


Posted by: StoneFox

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
Well Unless ofcourse Stone wants to let those heads go real cheap :eyebrow:




Thats not likely


Posted by: 65fairlane

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
265 ?! thats very depressing, I'm starting to miss my LS1 again.



You could follow my plan of action. Velveeta is giving away a Roush Stage 3 inside boxes of shells and cheese. I am eating a lot of shells and cheese now.


Posted by: MikeT

Quote:
You could follow my plan of action. Velveeta is giving away a Roush Stage 3 inside boxes of shells and cheese. I am eating a lot of shells and cheese now.



Sweet! another reason to live off macaroni & cheese.


Posted by: VETTKLR

Mmmmmm Shells & Cheese Touch O' Mexico


Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
265 ?! thats very depressing, I'm starting to miss my LS1 again.

Ooops, that was rwhp. 12.60's with iron heads isn't depressing for a 3440 lb Mustang in 1994/5. Today we all want more, but that's why I say go aluminum!!


Posted by: Tang

ohh ok, 265rwhp aint bad


Posted by: Tang

So how much hp with a stage 2 Trick Flow cam and no porting on the heads ?


Posted by: Tang

Oh yea, one more thing. What happens if I take the EGR spacer out all together ?


Posted by: Grape Ape

Idunno, but not much. The stock, unported head jut has too many issues. Some cars have seen 12's with a stock cam and heads setup, even with the stock intake. It's not to be expected though. W/O ported heads, my car probably never ran a 12, but I can't remember that far back.

You can remove ALL the EGR equipment, but removing just part of it won't likely do you any good.


Posted by: Tang

Ok, smog pump is by passed, cats are gone, whats left ? And will it hurt anything ?


Posted by: Grape Ape

The EGR crossover pipe, for one. If you've bypassed the smog pump, go ahead and remove it. Also, when you remove those parts, it's a good idea to block it a off at the intake too. If you add a plenum spacer, a quarter fits in the EGR hole pretty well.


Posted by: VETTKLR

Don't even think about putting a cam like that Stage 2 in an otherwise stock engine. There's no way in hell that a small intake and cast iron stock heads are gonna do what that cam wants them to do! You'll actually go slower than with the stock cam.

You must keep everything matched or your monster is gonna be a dud.

If that cam Stone was gonna hook you up with is a Stage 2, buy it and put it away. Use the B-cam if all else fails.

This is almost Twilight Zone shit right here. It's like watching myself when I started in on my car 6 or 7 years ago!


Posted by: Tang

Ok, ok, I see what ur saying.

So the combo I will be running in the time being is:
B-303
Air Gap and 575 carb
1 5/8 headers
mild ported E7's.

Then, after I save a heap. I'll go to what I'm really wanting.

306 Forged Pistons
Comp Cams Extreme Energy Hyd Roller 282 Cam, 565/574 232/240 @.050 with 1.6 Rockers, 112 Lobe Sep.
AFR 185 heads 10:1 compression
Victor Jr intake
650 Speed Demon
H-Beam rods
Main Girdle
1 3/4" Full lenght headers
and a 100 shot

There, hows that for a matched up plan ?


Posted by: Tang

Here ya go, here is a pic of the Dyno results AFR got with that combo. Somehow I don't think my T5 will live happy behind that


Posted by: Grape Ape

I still think you should get the bigger carb now, because I don't think it will interfere with the early setup, and I don't think it will work well with the new. Why buy one now and one later?

Once you do the new setup, there's no need for the 1 3/4" header IMO. Sure, I have huge headers, but I also used 1 5/8" for my 308 with TW heads, and it was plenty. It also allowed much more room for working under the hood and easier installation of the headers to begin with.

It's your engine, but that's what I think.


Posted by: Tang

I suppose if I went to 1 5/8, it would just lower the rpm's at which the tq and hp peak.


Posted by: VETTKLR

That XE cam is a lotta' stick!!!

Show me the dyno #'s on that setup with some 205 heads instead of the 185's


Posted by: Tang

here is the Ford dyno page
http://www.airflowresearch.com/dyno/ford_dyno.htm

Here is the motor I'd prolly be more suited with. On this Dyno, the HP peaks almost exactly where CompCams says it will with that cam. The Power range on it is 1600-5600


Posted by: Tang

That XE cam isn't much bigger than a Stage 2 TF


CompCams 282
565/574, 232/240 @ 50, 112 LSA

TrickFlow Stage-2
542/563, 224/232 @ 50, 112 LSA


Posted by: Tang

Damn, just noticed my topic has went over 80 replies, half of them must be my own


Posted by: VETTKLR

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
here is the Ford dyno page
http://www.airflowresearch.com/dyno/ford_dyno.htm

Here is the motor I'd prolly be more suited with.



315 lbs/ft of torque at 2000 rpm? Yeah, I'll take one of those too!

That's interesting that they took heads that don't flow as well as my old TW Heads, a cam with less intake duration than my old e-cam, the same intake, and come up with 50 more ponies than I ever thought mine had.

I bet Westech got a nice little X-mas card from AFR!


Posted by: Tang

Are you shotting down my dreams man ? Are you saying it's not gonna work that good

Now, about some Rods, what about the Summit Stage-II rods ? rated up to 12:1 compression and 450hp. But I want a nitrous motor, so maybe those $488 per set h-beams are worth it

On that last one I posted they used the 165 heads. I want the 185's for mine. But that is pretty much the setup I'm after, except I might sub that XE266HR cam for the Stage 2 TrickFlow. I like how the TrickFLow has more lift and duration the exhaust side. A noted weakness in a SBF. But thats my setup right there, with a head and cam substitution.

Ohh yea, minus the $700 MSD box too


Posted by: Tang

Hey Grape, are full lenght headers really worth the extra price ? Or will shorties do just fine ?

Check out these Flowtech's from Summit http://store.summitracing.com/partd...art=BIG%2D12104

Full Lenght Headers, 15/8" primaries, 3" collectors, and they are only $103.95 The matching X-pipe is $199.95

BBK long tubes and matching off road h-pipe is $359.90

Flowtech Longtubes and matching OR X-pipe is $303.90


Posted by: VETTKLR

Full-Length headers are a better choice than shorties. I think they are well worth the extra cash.

Your factory 302 rods can handle over 500 hp if you use new ARP fasteners to put everything back together. I'd keep them.

The AFR 185's are good flowing heads. I think Brian @ Total Engine Airflow could hook you up a pretty good deal on them. His number is (270)782-6397 He's a VERY knowledgeable and helpful man. Call him up with your combo whenever it's time to buy the go-fast parts and see what he can do for you.

About those cams...I'm not trying to shoot your dreams down, dude! Until today, I don't think I knew you were planning on some spray. Well...the Stage 2 cam will work naturally aspirated. BUT, their are smaller cams than that one which will outperform it, because that cam makes the engine flow a pretty good amount of air. Some setups can't use that cam to it's full potential, because they simply can't pump that much air through them (a 9:1 302, for example). A 347 or 351 would like that cam a whole lot, but the baby 302 is a little on the small side!

Now that I know you're planning some spray, I'll OK that cam. The nitrous will supply that much needed air to the combustion chambers of that 302, just like a blower or turbo.

Example:

Buddy's Project...
302
Trick Flow Track Heat Intake
Twisted Wedge Heads
Trick Flow Stage 2 cam

This car runs 13.9's @ 100 mph

He slapped an S-Trim blower on the 302...BAM!!! 12.0's @ 117 so far with the stock pulley.

Impressive gain, huh.

Those 224/232 Duration cams will move some air when it's there to be moved!


Posted by: Tang

Yes, I was thinking a 100-150 shot would be nice. A 350-400hp 302 with a 150 shot will make my old pony pretty fun to play with.

That is very impressive tho, 1.9 secs and 17mph gain. Although I liked the idea of 400hp naturally aspirated, then add the spray.


I done some figuring, my Z28 was $400 per month. So if I pretend I still have that payment and stick that money back, I can buy some AFR heads in a little over 3 months.

I also think thet big XE cam would sound evil


Posted by: Grape Ape

Who're you kiddin' ? You won't save $400 a month that you don't HAVE to! You might be able to if you really set your mind to it tho. I saved $500 a month to buy my short block. That was just about the longest 11 months of my life too.


Posted by: Tang

I admit, I am a horrible money manager. It don't seem like a big deal at the time, but I waste a little here and there, and it really adds up.

Is it really going to be that hard to obtain 400hp with a n/a 302 ? and It live on the street with 92 octane ? What if I go 10.5:1 , with the XE282 cam and AFR 185's, Vic jr, and the 650 Speed Demon with longtubes ?


Posted by: Grape Ape

I think it's going to be hard to get 400hp, but it's likely quite possible with the proper setup. How ling it lives also depends on the setup, right down to the rings.


Posted by: Tang

Why dont one of yall loaded bastards buy these for me ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=2439118519

Ok Grape, is 375fwhp too optimistic ? I'm talking bhp too, turning the water pump, alternator and the powersteering pump until I can find a good deal on a manual rack...lol


Posted by: Grape Ape

It was my brother who won that lottery jackpot, not me..


Posted by: Tang

Come on Grape, anybody with a 9sec car surley has a grand to spot a po'boy for some AFR heads


Posted by: VETTKLR

Who needs to save their money?!?

Hell...just get a few shiny new credit cards and max them out in a few phonecalls!


Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
Come on Grape, anybody with a 9sec car surley has a grand to spot a po'boy for some AFR heads

PUH! tsk tsk...

I'm gonna shoot for 8's if I ever get back to the track with the juice workin'... This doesn't meant I have extra cashflow... It means I'm basically broke!

Speaking of my car(new thread)...


Posted by: VETTKLR

Yeah...you're supposed to ask people with stock cars for money, not super-modified cars! You know them niggaz got no dough!


Posted by: Grape Ape

Can I get a A-men!


Posted by: Tang

Sorry, how could I not know that...lol


Anyway, is 375 being too hopeful for a setup like that ?


Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
Anyway, is 375 being too hopeful for a setup like that ?

Like what?


Posted by: VETTKLR

Why don't you shoot for a nice, round 350.

Don't worry...350hp in a Pony will stomp a mudhole in those fatass F-bodies' 375hp.


Posted by: Tang

Whata ya mean "like what"....lol We have rambled for 7 pages about my car and now you say like what....lol Damn boy catch up.

So now, I've learned from you guys, to throw in a girdle, and some ARP bolts. Use Forged pistons, and then start it on it.

.030" over and 10:1
Main Girdle and ARP bolts
AFR 185 heads
XE274 or XE282 cam
Victor Jr intake
650 Speed Demon carb
1 5/8" Long tubes
Accel or MSD ignition stuffs


And if that don't get me 350hp, Im just going to cry...lol The Holley Systamax II kits claim 350hp for $2000, but they dont include the injectors, fuel pump, throttle body, air meter and the other things to make it right.

But I suppose if I could get it to turn 300-310rwhp ,and make my GT a little lighter, it would be pretty quick. Low 12's on sticky tires.

Now the hard part *gulp* saving money


Posted by: VETTKLR

I recommend 1 3/4" headers with the power adder. breathe, baby breathe!

Quote:
Originally posted by Tang
Whata ya mean "like what"....lol We have rambled for 7 pages about my car and now you say like what....lol Damn boy catch up.


Purple Paint fumes, most likely.


Posted by: Grape Ape

I think that combo should easily see fwhp in the 375 range.

Still, I wouldn't use 1 3/4" headers for a few reasons, not the least of which is, it isn't going to really help make power over 1 5/8" because the smaller header will sustain over 400rwhp already. I never used 1 3/4" headers and I'm sure my car was well over 400rwhp with the spray. The larger headers just tend to take up space. The heads(unmodified) don't have a large enough exh. port to need more header area. If I felt that a 13/4" header was enough for my engine, I'd rather that than my 2" primaries for sure.

No paint fumes now.... Paint was applied a few months ago. Now it's just the final work, buffing and doing the trim work.


Posted by: Tang

I talked CompCams, and they reccomended the 274HR (they said its for a 351W) for what I want, with the occasional squirt from a 100-125 shot.


273/281 Duration
.556"/.566" w/ a 1.6 rocker
106 CENTERLINE
110 LSA


Posted by: Grape Ape

110 LSA and they recommended that for nitrous too? That's not a terrible cam, but it's not really designed for nitrous IMO. What's the duration @.050?


Posted by: VETTKLR

Comp Cams XE-274 HR

224/232 @ .050 .555/.565 lift 112* LSA


Posted by: Grape Ape

Did they give him the wrong specs? That cam is fine IMO, as it's very much like the TFS "Stage 2" cam. You don't like it for his application...Wait, with the good heads, you probably would like it. Hydraulic roller, right?


Posted by: RacingJason

Hate to piss on everyone’s parade here, but.... you can make 400fwhp with stock heads. I don't recommend it but it has been done. The AFR's are great heads, and a serious bargain, but the twisted wedge heads outperform them every time. The downside is that TW 185cc heads are more expensive.

BTW- here is the link to the article on a 400hp stock head 306.

400hp

(ok ok...its 400hp at 8500rpms)


Posted by: MikeT

I think the article says 6,500. Its kinda hard to read though.


Posted by: Tang

Fellas, it was a custom grind, sorry forgot to add that. He just based it around the 274.


I WOULD RECOMMEND THE 274HR CAM ON A 110DEGREE LOBE SEPERATION. THE SPEC CARD WOULD LOOK LIKE THIS.
SPEC CARD
PART #: 35-000-8
ENGINE: FORD 351 WINDSOR
GRINDING INSTRUCTIONS 1
"" "" 2
GRIND #: FW 3632F /3634F HR110.0
SPC INST 1:
SPC INST 2:
J. DIAM: STD INT EXH
VALVE ADJUSTMENT
GROSS VALVE LIFT .556 .566
DURATION @ .006
TAPPET LIFT 273 281
VALVE TIMING OPEN CLOSE
@ .050 INT 6 38
EXH 50 2
SPECS FOR CAM INST. @ 106 CENTERLINE
INT EXH
DURATION @ .050 224.00 232.00
LOBE LIFT .348 .354
LOBE SEPARATION 110.0
ROCKER ARM RATIO 1.60


Posted by: Tang

I have the 5.0 mag with that article in it. Very cool. I'll be happy if mine just turns out 375fwhp while turning the alternator,water pump and power steering.


Posted by: RacingJason

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeT
I think the article says 6,500. Its kinda hard to read though.



DOH! Yeah it is 6500. I have the actually mag-racer article here someplace. Everything Sherman touches turns to gold...he even won the engine masters challenge last year by a pretty good margin.
I think since he is rebuilding his engine he should go for a set of TW specific pistons...I'll even hook him up with a discount on the heads when he is ready...AND I'll get him the real hook-up on a DYNAMIC trans if he needs it. (When no autozone trans will do)


Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:
Originally posted by RacingJason
Hate to piss on everyone’s parade here, but.... you can make 400fwhp with stock heads. I don't recommend it but it has been done. The AFR's are great heads, and a serious bargai