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Hey VettKlr
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Posted by: Tang

Here is my first stab at your setup. How far off is it ?

Posted by: VETTKLR

Something ain't jiving, because the torque and hp curve must meet @ 5250 rpm to be an accurate graph.

Posted by: Tang

lol....it does, sorry. Notice on the graph above the "500" doesnt line up on each side. I had each one set in a diff. range. Heres what it looks like when they are even.

Posted by: Tang

Anyway, how did I do power wise ? close ?

Posted by: VETTKLR

Hell, I like it!!! Looks pretty close to me!
I was guesstimating around 525fwhp, but I need to strap her on a dyno to make sure!

Cool program!

Posted by: Tang

I can mess with advance/retard and pull more out of it

Posted by: Tang

Ok, I speeded the ramp rate on your cam up, because you said yours was pretty quick. And this is with the timing retarded 13º
, it made 509 @ 6500 & 480ft/lbs @ 5000. Also, just for fun I run it with a 200 shot on it. The lines with dots are with the N20

Posted by: VETTKLR

Ain't nothin' like a little spray to make your day!

Posted by: Tang

Get it on a dyno soon ! My estimate is 400-420rwhp

Posted by: VETTKLR

That's exactly what it's putting out at this altitude.

That desktop dyno is pretty neat!

Posted by: Tang

It is pretty cool, it's great for finding parts that match each other. It however, CAN'T tell you if its over carbed or over cammed or over headed, you just have to use your own judgement there. Alogn with opinions from people that have been there before. But usually when a 302 has peak hp at 10,000, you have it over killed...lol

If you're interested in one of your own, I'd check out Desktop Dyno2003 , mine is Dyno2000 with all the updates, but the new one spose to have some better features.

They have Compression Ratio calculators, cam math, flow math etc.

Posted by: VETTKLR

Strap an 850, then a 950 carb to the program and see what it does.

Posted by: Tang

Timing at 13º retard
750cfm - 509hp @ 6500/480 ft/lbs @ 5000
850cfm - 515hp @ 6500/483 ft/lbs @ 5000
950cfm - 520hp @ 6500/486 ft/lbs @ 5000
1050cfm - 523hp @ 6500/487 ft/lbs @ 5000

Posted by: VETTKLR

What's up with the retarded timing?

Posted by: VETTKLR

Hmm...how 'bout a 950 carb and a solid roller...something along the lines of that Comp 292

Lemme go get some specs on an AFM HI-Rev cam too...that carb swap didn't do very well by itself!

Posted by: VETTKLR

Forget the Top Secret AFM cams...Let's try this one...

http://compcams.com/Technical/Searc...Number=35-773-8

Comp Cams XR-292 Solid Roller Cam.

I think these Canfield heads are just about maxed out with the Hyd. Roller cam I'm running now, but it wouldn't hurt to try a little bigger stick, huh!

Posted by: Tang

With that cam and the 950 and timing at -11.5 (no Im not sure, because I dont know chit about timing, just know it makes more at -11.5...lol )

566hp @ 6500
496ft/lbs @ 5500

Give me a sec to get the pics

Posted by: Tang

Here ya go, nice curve

Posted by: VETTKLR

Hmm...I'm getting the impression that solid rollers don't fuck around!

Posted by: Grape Ape

That's why I use them.

My cam, although made by Comp Cams, isn't in their web list. I looked and looked, but found a listing that says it's not listed on their website....Ah, secrecy... :roll: I can certainly say that it's very similar to the 292 though. A bit less duration @.050, but more lift with my 1.7's and a 112LSA. It also has a larger split in favor of exhaust numbers. With my "R" heads, I'm considering a much larger cam now that I've taken it off the road. But at $360 plus, I'm gonna wait till I'm sure I want it.

Posted by: Tang

You fellas are killing me. Don't make me bring my 250hp 5 ohhh out after ya

I want that 460 from that buildup. 630hp with a dual plane, is about 660-680 with a single plane. Isn't that 9's on 92 octane ?

Posted by: Grape Ape

Idonno about 9's with that, because you could expect to lose about 100-120hp through the drivetrain. Mid 10's wouldn't likely be a problem though.

Hey, they used a stock block, crank and rods... I've got all that, plus the swap kit to fit the 460 in your car....

It's for sale too.

Posted by: Tang

lol.......and what kind of fortune for that ?

Posted by: VETTKLR

nah fuckit...yank that little-bitty cam out and get another.

...then send it my way.

Posted by: Tang

Just think, I was going to be struggling to get 400hp out of a 302, but I could get it out of a 460 easy

Posted by: VETTKLR

Hell yeah! Throw a Mountain Motor in your Pony!

A couple years ago at the track, I saw this dude with a '79 Pony packing a stock 460 and C-6, pulled right out of a 1-ton truck. He slapped a 750 Double Pumper and a 200 shot on it...BAM!!! 10 second Pony...backfiring all the way down the track. He would have been super-fast if he would have got the tune lined out!

Posted by: Tang

I was thinking a half ass port job, get compression around 10:1, Air Gap , and a 750 DP, decent headers and cam. I mean honestly, would it be that hard to get 350rwhp with it ?

Posted by: Grape Ape

350rwhp out of what, a 460? Nope, that's not hard to do.

What's easier is getting torque. The one I have probably makes about 450rwtq as it is, with the C6(&small converter) behind it.

Posted by: Tang

Yeap out of a 460. I know it wont be very gas friendly, but still fun and nobody around here has one

Posted by: Grape Ape

Well you mentioned headers... There are only a few brands available for the 460 Fox body combination. Just keep that in mind. I have the right ones myself, but they aren't in GREAT shape. Still usable, and large, but not new by any means.

Posted by: Tang

Quote:


	The one I have probably makes about 450rwtq as it is

450 lb/ft at the wheels

Its gonna take more than Nittos to hook that up..

:evil:

Posted by: Tang

I'm wondering, if I would come out cheaper (and faster) in the long run to do the 460 swap rather than try to squeeze every drop out of a 306.

I can get a cheap 4 cyl to drive daily, and keep this one my weekend car. I do want it streetable, but I'm also out to have fun without spending a small fortune.

Grape, I'd like to have your motor and trans, just no way I can get the cash right now.

I was looking at cams, a lot look nice, but I put the two I liked the best in a screen shot (look down). I think either would be nice with a good 750 carb and a Vic Jr intake.

Posted by: Tang

Ok I was looking, and Summit only lists a Victor intake for the 460, thats in the 3500-8000 Range. Maybe a Torker II would be more suited ? 2500-6500 ?

Or the Weiand X-CELerator, 2000-6500.

Would deifnetly make one fun street car dont ya think ?

Posted by: Grape Ape

My 460 already has a Weiand Stealth on it. I don't care for the dual plane on such a torque monster, but otherwise, it's a very nice intake. Plus, the converter is a 10" unit from Coan. There's almost no doubt the trans has a shift kit or valve body replacement as well, but I never opened it to see. I just don't know what camshaft is in it. The 82 had no trouble rattling off 12's and running 112mph with this set up, as per my normal thoughts, without slicks.

I think it woud have no trouble seeing low 11's or maybe high 10's with slicks, since it's rebuilt. Then again, it's not fully rebuilt yet. I'd finish it for anyone wanting me to. Many people want to see things though, so it's not completely together. You'd want to put an engine like this into a car with an 8.8" rear too... A 7.5" wouldn't last.

Posted by: Tang

Well since mine is an 8.8 and already has 3.73's, it would work great. Traction permitting. I wish I could get the car down to around 3000 without me in it, but thats wishful thinking with a GT. Suppose to go have it weighed in the next few days to see what I'm working with.

Im starting to like this idea more and more

Posted by: Grape Ape

Considering the expense of building a 302HO to perform with what even a stock 460 is capable of, yeah, it's a decent idea. You'll want to consider a few things though, like the weight of a 460, the torque it makes(especially under 3000rpm) and the cost of major upgrades, like $2,000-2,200 cylinder heads, if the factory castings don't support your ideas anymore. Talk about a weight drop though, aluminums probably drop off about 120 lbs from the total weight!

On the brighter side, power and torque are guaranteed with little help from you. Also, these engines are all but unbreakable in stock form, even under drag racing stress. There's no need for aftermarket rods, much less crank or block, and even the cast pistons can handle the abuse of about a 250 shot of nitrous(if you dare use it), due mostly to the large cylinder volume.

I need to get pics of this engine, etc. because right now, it actually looks pretty good. For the rebuild, I had the block cleaned and got a valve job on the heads, and the intake and timing cover were both bead blasted and look new. The only part that doesn't look at least fairly new is the transmission. The other thing I'd like is cam specs. It idled like an aftermarket, but what do I know, since I never mic'd it??? Oh well.

Posted by: Tang

Would the stock heads be able to handle that XE284 cam ? What kind of horsepower do you think that cam would make in the motor you have ?

Seems like a really cool idea, and like I said I would be unique. After I done something like that, it would be a hard decision wether to put those spiffy 7.5 emblems on it, or leave the 5.0's on there and claim it's just a hot 302

Last question, I know you have headers, but what do you do about exhaust ? Is there an H-Pipe that will work ? Flowmaster and Mac make 3" cat backs, so thats not a biggie. I bet that thing would sound awesome through some 3" pipes with 2 chamber Flowmasters.

Posted by: Grape Ape

Quote:


	Originally posted by Tang Would the stock heads be able to handle that XE284 cam ? What kind of horsepower do you think that cam would make in the motor you have ? Last question, I know you have headers, but what do you do about exhaust ? Is there an H-Pipe that will work ? Flowmaster and Mac make 3" cat backs, so thats not a biggie. I bet that thing would sound awesome through some 3" pipes with 2 chamber Flowmasters.

The stock ports on a 460 head are, how you say uuuuuuuuge! Idonno what they flow, but I'd guess they're usable with any flat tappet cam designed for street use. They're probably even better with a power adder as well.

The exhaust must've been the last thing done on this car, and someone must've been short on money or dead serious about passing emissions, because what they did is shameful! They took these 3 or 3.5" collectors and welded on 2 1/4" pipes all the way out, inlcuding cats!!! They bolted up a stock system behind the cats. "Restrictive" is an understatement. Of course, worse still, and why I think it was emissions related, they used a Holley 600cfm 4bbl carb to top it all off. The car STILL ran 12.60's at will. With the proper carb and real exhaust, this car could've easily run mid 11's, even w/o slicks IMO.

What I was going to do is, 1st off delete the cats. Then I'd planned on a 3" exhaust all the way back to the dumps just ahead of the axles(like on my 408 car). That would mean easy adaptation to the headers and an inexpensive complete job. Still, I'd have it custom made and skip on the H or X-pipe altogether, saving weight(little bit), money, time and space.

Posted by: Tang

If Im gonna go with a 460, I dont think I will use 1 or 2 chambers, might better go with Super Turbos or 3 chambers, because that mofo would be LOUD with 3" pipes and dumps.

You're killing me man...lol I want that badly now. How hard is the swap ? Getting the 460 in and getting the C6 fitted ? Driveshaft yoke ? Crossmember ? And the biggie for me to keep it street legal somewhat, hwo big of a cowl does it take to fit the air cleaner under ?

You say it would have probably ran mid 11's without slicks. Do you mean normal street tires or Drag Radials/ET Streets ? I got a bazillion more questions now. How hard is a Transbrake to install , those always looked fun to me

Getting to a 1/4 is hard, so I will only be running the 1/8 mostly. I assume with the 460 you have, like it is, plus a 150-175 shot will run 6's int he 1/8 no trouble on ET Streets or even some 26x10.50 ET Drags.

Yup, I can see it now. 460, 175 shot, C6, transbrake, 3.73's, oh yea, that sounds fun :burnout:

Posted by: Grape Ape

Mine was in an 82, with it's stock hood. That hood has a hole in it(forward cowl) and it just nicked the cowl with no air cleaner, so I'd recommend a 4" cowl.

Fitment is a drop in. It has more space than my 408, thanks to the headers and the heads themselves being so tall. Spark plug changes were easy compared to the 408, and at least as easy as with the 302. To give you an idea of how easily it fits, I took the engine and transmission out together. I had to remove the radiator 1st though. That was a standard 2 core, but was indeed in the way. Once removed, I unbolted the trans. mount and M/M and it took about 5 minutes to remove the combo.

And 86 5.0HO(w/dual exhaust) cross member was used with this and seemed to work just fine. However, I'd think there was some "adjustment" of that c.m. by breaking welds and then rewelding once adjusted. I have the D/S and I'll gladly work something out on that(like throw it in).

Keeping it street legal is easy... Just add cats and you're done. It passed emissions here and I'm sure it will most places, but you MIGHT need to throw on a smaller carb for the test. If tuned and properly jetted, the larger carb would probably be better though.

I'm convinced it would've run 11's on standard radials(w/ me driving) in the scenario I gave. You may want a trans-brake, but man... Talk about launching! Remember, the 460 makes MUCHO torque!!!! We're talkin' about 500 ft lbs. while factory stock. Installing one might be a bit of work. I'd take it to a trans builder, who could do it quickly and make it look really easy.

To nail 6's in the 1/8th mile, you'll need that good launch(and to go STRAIGHT!), but I'd think it would happen with a 175 shot and the proper gearing and traction... I'd recommend BFG's to begin with, so you'll have better control till you're used to the torque.

Posted by: Tang

I wasnt worried about the emissions, I just meant here in VA 4" is the limit on hood height.

With a transbrake, I might eventually see my car yank the wheels on Slicks. But that also would be further down the road, because I know 4 lug wheels arent gonna take many trans brake launches at 4000...lol

I really like this idea, so my gas mileage will go to crap, who cares, seems like a whole lot of fun.

While I'm loading you with questions. Would the Aluminum Cobra Jet heads be more street suited than the A460 Trick Flows ? They both cost about the same tho.

Posted by: Grape Ape

The Ford heads are actually less expensive than the TFS version, but I honestly don't know about the emissions factor with either set. But since we're on this question, there are only a couple versions that will bolt to a stock production block, so be sure about that before making any decisions. I don't want you to go to the trouble of buying this, then realizing there are some important limitations in some areas. So I'll tell you as much as I can, if I know the answers. For actual street use, the Edelbrocks may be more suitable than either of the "better" designs.

Idonno about "bad" gas mileage. I didn't keep the car on the street long enough to know how bad it was, and it was years ago anyway, but it seems you'd get about 15mpg, which isn't bad for a 460 attached to a 3 speed. In many of Fords production cars, it would be worse, but they're not likely anywhere near as lightweight as a Mustang from this era, nor would they have any aerodynamic characteristics to speak of. It might not be that good with the big' ole carb on it though.

Posted by: Tang

Well, it probably wont be a daily driver anymore after a swpa like that. So I'd want the heads to be able to make major power if they needed too.

I would love to have it like that one in the test, 630hp on 9.5:1 compression. I still think it would have been in the 675 range with a single plane intake.

I understand, thats just turning a waterpump, the power steering and alternator will suck a lot of power, then the drivetrain loss. So if it had 650 on the dyno, what could you expect running through a C6, 500-525 @ the wheels ?

Subframe connectors and some battle boxes are a must.

The only thing about buying yours, is it is so far away. If I could find another 460 locally, would you be willing to sell me the headers and oil pan ?

Last thing, I know a 3 angle vave job would be nice, but could some home porting on the exhaust side help on the heads ?

Posted by: Grape Ape

W/ 650 on the dyno, I'd expect about 500 through a C6. It's one big and strong transmission. Subframes for sure, and I'd think a roll bar would be a strong recomendation.

I might see sending the o.p. and headers alone, yeah... I'll have to think about it though, as it's usually easier to sell an entire package. I'll be about 600 miles away(rough guess- 595 to Wytheville) as of the 6th, but Idonno where you live, and the engine/tranny is already at the new house.

As for porting, it could help, but honestly, 460 heads are massive and you'd probably not need to bother. At most, look to remove any EGR bumps on a set of these heads. I'm not even sure of their presence on my 460 heads, since it's a 73 model. I seem to remember something there, but I just didn't ever pay enough attention to it. The size of the ports made me disregard any thought of porting.

Posted by: Tang

If you mean Wytheville, VA in Wythe county, it is a 30-45 min ride from here, no biggie at all really.

If you hit I-77 coming through this way, you take exit 8 (in VA not NC) to get to where I live. I doubt I could have the money by then anyway

that sucks ass.

Need a spare 351W while ur up this way ?.....LoL

Posted by: Grape Ape

Hmmm.... How much? Not that I'd use it as a spare for my current block, but I may build something else and I kinda like the 351W. So, are you south, east, west, north of Wytheville? I'd figure south, to some degree.... Wait, exit 8 means you must be somewhat south, but east or west? I'll quite likely be heading through VA on 77 sometime this month.

Posted by: Tang

Im point A

Posted by: Grape Ape

It's about 560 miles to Lambsburg or Cana, if you're near either of those, from the (not even a) spot on the map I'll be in..

Posted by: Tang

I live in Cana....lol the entering and leaving sign is ont he same post here

Posted by: Grape Ape

A bit over 10 hours away. I'll bet I could make it inside of 9 with good weather and light traffic.

Posted by: Tang

trade the 351 to ya for the headers and oil pan....lol

Im kidding, I know they are worth more than the motor prolly.

Posted by: Patriot1776

900+ ft/lbs. torque on spray?

Man I hope you're gonna have a C6 backing that thing up if you're spray it! I'm doubtful even a TH400 would handle that much friggin' torque.

Then again, I think the car would be hard as crap to get to hookup at the strip with that much torque.

Posted by: VETTKLR

That's just a theoretical dyno graph.

More like 895 ft.lbs

I think a Progressive Nitrous Controller is needed.

Posted by: Patriot1776

I know it was theoretical, but 900 ft/lbs of torque, if he actually did spray it, that's more like semi-truck territory.

Posted by: VETTKLR

Damn straight, I'm gonna spray it!!! That's what she's built for!!!

Posted by: Patriot1776

Then that's gonna be one FAST car. How heavy is it actually? If you get that thang to hook, my gosh, talk about being buried in ya seat!!

Posted by: VETTKLR

3200-3300lbs.

I have a bad feeling about the T-5Z in a month or so...

Posted by: 410stroker

Hey can u send me that desktop dyno program!!!

Posted by: Tang

That would be a big ass email

Posted by: 410stroker

true...u can send it another way besides email :P

Posted by: Tang

Quote:


	Originally posted by VETTKLR 3200-3300lbs. I have a bad feeling about the T-5Z in a month or so...

Jamie, dude, if ur just gonna trash it, give it to me please :btg:

Posted by: Grape Ape

I wouldn't even have considered a T5 of any sort behind my 408. I broke too many of them with the little 308. I may consider a G-Force T-5 now, but that wasn't available when I built my combo and the price alone was sufficient for me to pass on it later.

Posted by: VETTKLR

My T-5Z and my Ford Motorsport clutch see no real power in this thin air

My original T-5 blew up in a bone-stock 302!

This new one is "Echo en Mexico" Ole!!!

Stinky, you're hell on trannies!!!

Posted by: Grape Ape

I'm not so bad on them really. I've only broken 9 T5's.

But if ya think that's bad, Ranger broke something like 17 of them. My feeling is, they're junk from the beginning, but that's just me. I don't know many people who've had a Mustang for any length of time, modified it, and didn't shatter 3rd gear at some point.

It's prolly made in Mexico now because Tremec LLC bought Borg Warner. Still, the "real deal" Tremec is a much stronger tranny. I wore one out, but that puppy never broke. Ranger liked the idea too I guess, because he bought one for his truck a couple years ago and he's still got it.

Posted by: Tang

Quote:


	I may consider a G-Force T-5 now

A T5 by any other name, is still the same. They may have super dooper whopper tough gears in them, but it is still int hat thin aluminum case. You put enough pressure on it, I'd bet the left and right side of the case will divorce and go their seperate ways.

No, I don't know as much about all this stuff as you guys, but if you're going to spend that much on a tranny, buy a Liberty or something. A friend of mine picked up a Liberty 5-speed for $1300. Used ofcourse.

But that G-Force to me is like putting Richmond Gears in a 7.5 rear end.

Posted by: Grape Ape

I ginda agree there Kennis, but it's not every day you'll find a Liberty avialable for under $2,500 and the T5 is a direct fit deal, appealing to most. While the case is the weak point once the "G-force" stuff is inside, it's not promised to break. If things are held in well, and fitted properly, it should handle some big numbers. The problem I have isn't so much the cost, as it's that I know T5's to be junk. The new gearset is as serious as you'll find in a T5, but I still don't like it that much. Anything under 450 ft. lb. torque wouldn't quickly kill it though, IMO.

Posted by: Patriot1776

:btg: I'd say that T-5 is gonna explode like a stick o' dynamite as soon as you spray it! If I was gonna run a manual tranny with that much torque, I think I'd get me a six-speed out of a 99+ F-350 diesel dually. It'd probably laugh at that much torque in such a light vehicle.

Posted by: Grape Ape

1st would be useless! And 2nd would be nearly useless too.

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