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Old 11-24-2007, 01:07 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Grape Ape
I don't think anyone is trying to make it look like only Ford builds and forgets. You made the point though, it sometimes takes yrs. Dodge made that Charger in about 6yrs. Ford makes the GT500, which has many "Super Stallion" items, and it took them 10yrs. The bad thing is, the "test car" is much much better in any performance respect at all, including handling and that's bad since this new Mustang doesn't ride on a 30yr old chassis.

I'm still unhappy about the current Mustang in a performance sense. It handles great and I'm okay with that as is, knowing a set of wheels and better tires could make all the improvement most drivers could ever need. It's the engine and transmission I'm less than impressed with. Infact, I'm just about disgusted with the combo.

Bottom line: I don't care if it looks like a million bucks when it can't perform like a 10yr older version. Ford not only could have, but did make a better version all those yrs ago and simply refused to market that model. Instead, they made a similar version but held back on performance in comparison, largely by adding weight and computer drawbacks.

We'll likely see the reality of "the hit" when Dodge and Chevrolet unleash their packages and I don't think it will look very good for Ford at that time. They will simply have to make changes if they have a single intention of competing in the performance arena, period. Such changes won't include lacklustre packages with 15-25 "extra hp" like the Bullitt. I wouldn't be atoll surprised to see a near 300hp V6 Camaro, which would undoubtedly put the hurt on all Mustang sales.





It's taken Dodge more than six years to bring the Charger back to the Market. The first time I saw the concept they were attempting to bring back was when I was 17 or 18 years old... that was 10 years ago and it wasn't a new idea then.

So you are saying that a new Mustang doesn't perform as well as a Fox?? That's crazy. Stock for Stock the S197 will out perform a Fox, the car is leaps and bounds improved over the Fox car. Have you even driven a new Mustang??

You have to remember that the Fox Mustang was ALMOST the last Mustang. Does no one remember that the Mustang almost became the Probe!!?!?!?! Hell, I think the SN95 that replaced the Fox was a blessing compared to what almost happened with the car. You need to keep that in mind when you are talking about what Ford could have done.

It's easy for us to sit here and say they should do this or should have done that but the truth is that for the people that fought to keep the car alive... they did a damn good job. The Mustang is an American Icon... the Camaro and Challenger, while great cars in their own rights, will never be the Iconic cars that the Mustang is. That is one thing that will always differ the cars and that will always be why, even though the Mustang is a performance car... it is a lot more and will venture outside the performance box.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see a near 300hp Camaro... hell, we already know that the Mustang is eventually getting either the 3.5 V6 or the 3.7 Lincoln version. Engine that are putting out between 260 to 270+ Horsepower. Keep an eye on the Corvette, whatever the power ends up being for the base model the year the Camaro comes out will tell you what the Camaro will get. GM will NOT let the Camaro get too close to the 'Vette in performance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grape Ape
And btw, the average buyer doesn't give a hoot about Ford in a "business standpoint" sense. He/she simply wants a better vehicle for the price and nothing short of that outlook will suit most.





You are right, which is exactly why the V6 Mustang sells so well and exactly why the Camaro died the first time. A chasis that was that was almost 30 years old was still "better" even though it was underpowered and didn't perform as well.


But my point remains valid, we are talking about why doesn't Ford do this or why did they do that. Well, in order to understand that you have to look at it from a business standpoint, not from a customer standpoint. It's said to say but that is how it works.

Hell, I wish we could get these cars here...




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Apart from the blue stripes running the length of the cars and the Cobra snake badgetry in and out, the Cobra GT and Ute also feature an updated version of FPV’s (Ford Performance Vehicles) Boss 5.4-litre V8 engine. Output has been enhanced to 302 KW (405Hp)

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Old 11-24-2007, 01:19 PM   #47
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:14 PM   #48
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It's taken Dodge more than six years to bring the Charger back to the Market. The first time I saw the concept they were attempting to bring back was when I was 17 or 18 years old... that was 10 years ago and it wasn't a new idea then.

Then we'll have to meet in the middle on this one, as it's been out since 2005.

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So you are saying that a new Mustang doesn't perform as well as a Fox?? That's crazy. Stock for Stock the S197 will out perform a Fox, the car is leaps and bounds improved over the Fox car. Have you even driven a new Mustang??

I said the new Mustang doesn't perform as well as the "Super Stallion." It's not only crazy, it's true and correct. THAT is precisely what sucks here! The Super Stallion annihilates the current Mustang without a second thought in the matter. It simply blasts the S197 from the hint of "go" and never looks back. It's nearly 2 seconds quicker on the 1/4, 20 plus mph faster on a whim, stops sooner, slaloms better... It's the hands down winner of the two, and it's 10yrs old. Even the GT500 can't really compete well against the Super Stallion in a single category.

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You have to remember that the Fox Mustang was ALMOST the last Mustang. Does no one remember that the Mustang almost became the Probe!!?!?!?! Hell, I think the SN95 that replaced the Fox was a blessing compared to what almost happened with the car. You need to keep that in mind when you are talking about what Ford could have done.

That was the 1980's and while you are gathing information, you didn't know didly about cars at the time. The Probe became its own model for a reason. That reason is simple to see now. It couldn't properly bare the Mustang nameplate due mostly to FWD and small, power lacking engines.

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I also wouldn't be surprised to see a near 300hp Camaro... hell, we already know that the Mustang is eventually getting either the 3.5 V6 or the 3.7 Lincoln version. Engine that are putting out between 260 to 270+ Horsepower.

Back to the real problem. Ford is allowing the market dictate a response rather than creating the market to demand a response. They've been duped into believing that even the hardcore enthusiast will just "deal with" whatever they toss together. Like many, I'm just waiting to see what happens with the competition and watching Ford scramble in response... So it can complain again about losing market share, particularly in the US market.

Ford should be making a 260+hp V6 Mustang TODAY, not tomorrow "if the competition does something nice." That waiting will hurt sales. Frankly, had the last Camaro not be so damned uncomfortable, the V6 vs V6 would've been a no brainer against the Mustang. The next Camaro will not be so poorly built as the last, bet on it.

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Keep an eye on the Corvette, whatever the power ends up being for the base model the year the Camaro comes out will tell you what the Camaro will get. GM will NOT let the Camaro get too close to the 'Vette in performance.

I agree the Camaro will get the base 'vette engine as its top choice initially. That said, the straightline performance of the last Camaro easily rivaled the base Corvette. That could mean a new Camaro running low 12's all stock. Ford cannot afford that problem and still produce a "so-so" performing Mustang.

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You are right, which is exactly why the V6 Mustang sells so well and exactly why the Camaro died the first time. A chasis that was that was almost 30 years old was still "better" even though it was underpowered and didn't perform as well.

The Camaro died because it was built like crap and that ridiculously placed hump on the passenger side cost Chevy thousands of sales. I almost got a 97 Z/28 model, but my g/f said "NO WAY" after riding in it. I passed immediately since I knew I'd have to put up with her regardless which car I drove. The Mustang was built better and more comfortable and also less expensive.


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But my point remains valid, we are talking about why doesn't Ford do this or why did they do that. Well, in order to understand that you have to look at it from a business standpoint, not from a customer standpoint. It's said to say but that is how it works.

Looking at how you build a vehicle strictly from a business standpoint will always cost more in the end due to lost sales(see above). It just doesn't get more basic than one simple rule. Satisfy the buyer, without whom, anything you design and build will merely sit collecting dust while aging. Ford didn't get "Mustang" to iconic standing by offering up a 2005 model. It didso by offering real performance. In the beginning, there was little competition. Soon there was more, and Ford responded with more "bang for the buck" and that is one current concern people have. It seems to have much less "bang for the buck" than it used to. High end models are a rip off and low end models hardly perform at all like the higher end.


And back to the safety issue NRA mentioned. The Dodge Charger seems to be on the list of 10 safest cars under 25K, but the Mustang isn't.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:54 PM   #49
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and that ridiculously placed hump on the passenger side cost Chevy thousands of sales. I almost got a 97 Z/28 model, but my g/f said "NO WAY" after riding in it. I passed immediately since I knew I'd have to put up with her regardless which car I drove. The Mustang was built better and more comfortable and also less expensive.


What hump would that be of which you speak? I've never heard mention of such before.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:43 PM   #50
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The hump he is referring to is mostly the huge trans tunnel. It does intrude on the passenger side floor board quite a bit, IMO. I guess it's about half way across the passenger side floor board before it gets flat.
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:04 PM   #51
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Ha, wow. Had never noticed that in pictures (never sat in one).
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:31 PM   #52
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That hump is even more than the tunnel, and underneath it sits a catalytic converter which, by the floorboard size, must be about 60 lbs worth of space wasting metal. Even my g/f complained of no place for her feet. She was maybe 5'6" tall and I thought she'd never notice. She did though, before we ever left the parking lot.
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